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Evil has many faces.
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A man who laughs.
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The master of Metropolis.
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The Guardian of fear.
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A conqueror of worlds.
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Many faces, but just one name:
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The supervillain.
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Powerful, charismatic...
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...intelligent, ruthless.
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The supervillain reflects our fears
and frustrations...
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...the dangers and perils of everyday life.
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They commit the heinous crimes we will not.
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And in a world where right and wrong
are not absolute...
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...where shades of gray exist in life
as well as the comic page...
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...evil isn't just unavoidable, it's necessary.
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In the world of comics, one could argue
that the villain is even more vital to the story...
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...than the just and moral hero.
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For without a proper adversary...
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...we tack the very essence of story:
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Conflict.
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After all, isn't it the villain
who catapults the hero into action?
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Without the villain, there's really no story.
The superhero exists and does nothing.
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If the villain isn't acting out,
Superman stays Clark Kent.
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The superheroes are always reacting.
The villains are making things happen.
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Villains are the ones with a plan. The villains
are the ones who are taking the initiative.
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If you define "protagonist" as somebody
who sets something in motion...
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...and "antagonist" as somebody
who stops him...
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...almost all the villains in comic books
are protagonists.
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You need that ongoing impetus of the bad guy,
the one who's gonna be a challenge...
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...the one who is going
to threaten society's rules...
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...and be put in their place by somebody
who upholds those rules.
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Not only is there no story
or conflict without the villain...
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...but it's through the villain
that we see our hero at their very core.
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We see their many flaws,
we see their many weaknesses.
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We see what makes them the hero they are.
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Without the villain to define the hero...
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...you don't have a hero.
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You have no anvil from which the superhero
is pounded into the shape that he is.
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Villains in comic book stories...
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...allow the hero or the superhero
to really flex their muscles.
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The more power the supervillains have...
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...the more you can showcase
how important that superhero is.
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The stronger your villains are, the stronger
your hero is. They have to overcome...
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...somebody who's smart, powerful...
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...who knows what they want and who's on
a mission that they believe in.
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So if the hero can stop them, you know,
it makes them that much better.
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All the more true in the DC universe
because we have rich villains.
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One is Flash and Reverse-Flash.
The very names give you what they are.
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Reverse-Flash suffered something
so horrible.
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And he felt like the Flash could have fixed it.
He knew that the Flash could go through time.
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He'd seen it happen before.
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He said, "Why don't you go back,
prevent this from happening? Why won't you?"
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The guy won't do it.
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"Well, he won't do it
because he hasn't felt tragedy like I have.
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So I'm going to have him feel tragedy
to make him a better hero.
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You need to be able to take the measures
to protect everyone you love.
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You wouldn't do it for me. Maybe you'll do it
for yourself. So I put you to the test."
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The Riddler,
he's all about Batman's intellect.
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He, to me, is the sword-sharpener.
He's the guy that says:
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"if you are not clever enough,
everybody dies in that way."
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He shows in some ways
that Batman, at his roots...
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...needs to be the greatest detective.
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At his heart, he's born in Detective Comics. At
the core of the character is Sherlock Holmes.
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He's that guy that, because he's human,
needs to be smarter than anybody else...
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...to solve these crimes.
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For me, the Riddler steps on to the stage
and challenges that fundamental element...
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...of Batman's capabilities that needs
to be there almost more than any other.
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I mean, that's Batman's superpower.
He's the greatest detective of all time.
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The relationship between a villain
and their rival is more complicated...
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...than a question of right versus wrong,
good versus evil.
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Together, they form a dynamic that is, at times,
interdependent.
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A villain cannot exist without a hero
and a hero, his or her villain.
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They're in a symbiotic relationship
in that if the villains were to do off the hero...
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...I think they would probably
find themselves a little listless.
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When we did "Death of the Family" story...
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...he comes at Batman saying,
“Deep down, we really love each other."
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And, of course, Batman says, "I hate nothing
more on the earth than you, Joker."
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The Joker feels that the family that Batman
has built around him all these years...
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...is dragging him down.
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He says,
“These people are draining your soul.
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These other members,
they're sucking the life out of you.
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I'm your friend. I wanna make you
be the best that you can be...
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...so that we can both have a relationship
that we could enjoy for so many years...
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...without these knuckleheads
on the side constantly draining you.
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And so I'm gonna take care of them for you,
and I will wipe out all these family members...
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...so you can be free of their encumbrance."
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What the Joker, at his core, is saying
is that:
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"You might not love us
the way that we love you...
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...or you might not want to admit you love us
the way we love you.
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This rogues' gallery that you have,"
he's like, "All of us love you.
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All of us are here only to make you
a better superhero."
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The question always becomes:
What came first, the hero or the villain?
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Did the hero introduce himself to society
to do better good...
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...and because they put on that costume...
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...the costumed villain arose
to confront him or to challenge him?
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Or did the costumed villain arrive first...
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...and the hero was created in order to stop
that type of villain from succeeding...
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...or getting more powerful?
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There are threats
that Superman has to face...
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...where I would tend to think
we're grateful Superman is there.
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People might say, "if Superman weren't here,
would these menaces be coming to Earth?"
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Bane comes to Gotham
specifically to fight Batman.
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This is the Riddler
as he originally appeared.
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First moved to Gotham because
he was attracted by the challenge of Batman.
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They both came there to challenge Batman...
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...to see if he could be a foe worthy of them,
give them something interesting to do.
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So the question is which came first?
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And I'm not sure
if I really wanna answer that question.
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The one thing I can say,
one can't exist without the other.
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As long as we have villains,
there will be heroes.
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And as long as we have heroes,
there will be villains.
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But what is it about the villain
that keeps us so entranced...
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...that captivates and enthralls us?
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What makes us applaud the very person
we want to see vanquished?
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The reasons are often as multifaceted
as the villains we enjoy.
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What makes a great supervillain
is something that we can relate to.
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It's the same thing
that makes for a great superhero.
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In the superhero we have this exaggeration
of what our hopes and desires are.
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At the same time
the villain has aspects of us...
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...that challenge the strengths
that we're admiring in the superhero.
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I would like to think that most people
identify with the hero, heh.
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But in this day and age there might be
some who identify with the villain.
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I understand getting a gun that shoots ice
and going into a bank and trying to rob it.
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We understand temptation.
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The oldest stories ever told
have to do with temptation...
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...whether it's Pandora or Adam and Eve.
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This very basic quality in human beings
that runs with us throughout our lives.
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Now, there are villains
like the Joker or Black Hand...
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...that are so twisted and dark...
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...you love seeing them do their stuff,
but you don't relate to them.
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At least, you don't admit you do.
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Everyone wishes that they could turn invisible
or fly or have x-ray vision.
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And I think what's cool about villains
is everyone wishes that they could break bad.
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What's the point of having a villain who can't
act out aspects of ourselves that we repress?
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I can be evil. I'm gonna give you
my husband's number...
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...and you can have a long chat with him.
Heh, heh, heh.
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I think there are some people who really
associate themselves with, like, a Superman.
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On the other hand,
people covet Lex Luthor's keen intellect.
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When I was growing up
I loved the character of Vandal Savage.
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DC had relaunched The Flash
with Wally West as the Flash...
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...after Crisis on Infinite Earths and his first
villain that he fought was Vandal Savage.
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He was immortal.
And who wouldn't want to be immortal?
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And who wouldn't want to have
this far reach into history?
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He's one of those villains that has nothing
to lose. That's a very dangerous man.
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You know,
he just knows he will be resurrected.
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How do you defeat that person?
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You look good. Been working out?
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You could probably use a little sun.
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Then again, who am I to talk?
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They seem to be happy. Heh.
They seem to enjoy being bad.
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Most of the heroes, especially of late...
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...they're all broody and sad.
They never seem to be enjoying anything.
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You look at villains
and they're having the time of their lives.
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Harley became popular
because, in part, she's funny.
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She can stand up to the Joker.
She can tell a joke. She can get a laugh.
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When I go to conventions
and I see young ladies cosplaying as her...
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...I think they just tap into that feeling of fun
and that she can just be kind of whimsical.
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Harley Quinn is one of those characters
you love.
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Even if she's smashing somebody
with a hammer, you love her.
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There's a handful of those villains,
like Larfleeze...
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...the Orange Lantern.
He's deadly but he's fun.
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He's overwhelmed with greed and he'll kill
for it. He's still funny because of that.
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He comes to Earth and finds out
there's a being called Santa Claus...
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...who gives people things that you list.
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When Larfleeze finds out
there's a being called Santa Claus...
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...that answers your Christmas list,
he makes a giant list.
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When Santa doesn't show up,
he gets pissed off and says:
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"I'm gonna kill him."
And he goes on a hunt for Santa Claus.
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There's very few characters
that you can pull that story off with.
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Larfleeze is one of those characters.
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But while villains can be fun,
as well as fascinating...
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...they're also a direct reflection
of our own fears.
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They force us to examine
the deep and personal terrors...
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...that we are unable to face
in our everyday lives.
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When writers create supervillains...
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...when children imagine monsters...
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...they're trying to make sense
of a scary world.
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They're trying to feel strong.
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They're trying to do so many things.
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Villains in some ways, you know,
should reflect our fears and our concerns...
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...you know, both as individuals
and as a society.
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They change over time.
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But the more important thing the villains
present is our more global fear...
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...our more human fear, our fear of loss...
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...our fear of death, our fear of the unknown.
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The villain represents basically
everything that we fear...
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...or everything that we need
to fight against.
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Parallax is interesting because the idea that
it's a world-eater, that scares the hell out of us.
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At any moment
some universal malevolence...
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...can come and take us over.
That's a pretty scary thing.
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By the time they were doing
the Superman show, I was an adult.
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But whenever you'd watch
those Darkseid episodes, I'd be like:
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"Oh, God, this is gonna be bad."
You know...
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...anybody who can make Superman bleed...
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...is somebody that you don't wanna
be trifled with.
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Because what are any of us
really gonna do against him?
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JOHNS: I really made Sinestro
and the Sinestro Corps embody fear.
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They're cosmic terrorists.
199
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Their mission when they come
is to destroy Coast City.
200
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"We're gonna make Green Lantern's
town a crater...
201
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...and a symbol of fear,
so that nobody will ever come back here."
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Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps says,
"We're not afraid. We're gonna fight your fear."
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00:13:29,892 --> 00:13:34,147
Hal flies to his brother's house and his brother
is there with his wife and his kids.
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Hal Jordan says to his brother,
"You have to leave right now."
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His brother says,
“We're not going anywhere. We believe in you.
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We're not afraid.
We're standing our ground."
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And suddenly another Green Lantern says,
"Hal, look outside."
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And someone's put a green light
in their window...
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...and another person puts a green light
in their window.
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And suddenly there's green lights
all throughout the city...
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...as a symbolic gesture to Hal.
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And for me, that was a recharge moment
for Hal Jordan overcoming fear...
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...but it was also a moment, emotionally,
for me saying, like:
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00:14:08,431 --> 00:14:11,230
"This is how we deal with fear.
We take a stand."
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They're our personal demons.
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Like, they're the fears we have
about ourselves...
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...come to life
in these incredibly colorful and bright...
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...and sometimes funny,
sometimes terrifying ways.
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All of us face those things in our lives,
where you face adversity in some way...
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...where you're positive
you're not gonna make it through this one.
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00:14:29,035 --> 00:14:33,165
And I think we've all been there at some point
where you're just thinking to yourself:
222
00:14:33,373 --> 00:14:35,171
"I am not capable of overcoming this."
223
00:14:35,375 --> 00:14:38,128
Whether it's a small day-to-day thing
or it's a big thing.
224
00:14:38,336 --> 00:14:41,761
And what villains do is they represent
those fears on this macro way...
225
00:14:41,964 --> 00:14:45,844
...I think, for the hero, who's the
representative of all the things we think--
226
00:14:46,052 --> 00:14:50,148
We hope that humanity is capable
of or we're capable of at our best.
227
00:14:50,348 --> 00:14:53,773
Then when the hero overcomes those things
at the end because they have to...
228
00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:56,354
...it says to us that we can too.
229
00:15:07,824 --> 00:15:10,202
Every myth has a creation.
230
00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:14,961
Just like our heroes,
every villain must have an origin.
231
00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:19,795
And what qualities do we see
in the most popular villains?
232
00:15:20,002 --> 00:15:23,757
Instilling a sense of fear simply isn't enough.
233
00:15:23,965 --> 00:15:27,845
Villains must be layered, nuanced.
234
00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:33,934
We must ask ourselves:
What makes a bad guy, a bad guy?
235
00:15:34,642 --> 00:15:38,943
You wanna give your villain idiosyncrasies,
and you want to make him strangely weird...
236
00:15:39,147 --> 00:15:42,276
...and interesting psychologically.
237
00:15:42,483 --> 00:15:46,533
Those kind of characters lend themselves
to having stories told about them...
238
00:15:46,737 --> 00:15:49,490
...because their bones are so strong.
239
00:15:49,699 --> 00:15:51,667
You can put, you know...
240
00:15:51,868 --> 00:15:53,541
You can hang a lot of meat on them.
241
00:15:53,744 --> 00:15:57,465
They have their own path
and they all have their own story.
242
00:15:57,665 --> 00:16:02,592
And, you know,
while their powers may be similar...
243
00:16:02,795 --> 00:16:05,844
...hopefully their personalities are not.
244
00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:10,849
If a villain is great-looking
or is great just visually...
245
00:16:11,053 --> 00:16:12,930
...but doesn't have a back-story...
246
00:16:13,139 --> 00:16:18,316
...it really takes away
from enjoying its run.
247
00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,068
The wonderful thing
about Batman: The Animated Series...
248
00:16:21,272 --> 00:16:24,025
...is that they not only featured...
249
00:16:24,233 --> 00:16:28,864
...and celebrated a number
of DC villains in Gotham City...
250
00:16:29,071 --> 00:16:31,324
...but introduced a number of origin stories.
251
00:16:31,908 --> 00:16:34,252
Of course, we have this back-story
of Harvey Dent...
252
00:16:34,452 --> 00:16:37,046
...and his struggles with his anger.
253
00:16:37,246 --> 00:16:40,841
We even get to see this session
he has with a psychiatrist.
254
00:16:41,042 --> 00:16:45,673
And the psychiatrist puts him
into this state of hypnotism...
255
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,135
...and asks him to draw up his alter ego.
256
00:16:50,343 --> 00:16:53,187
He calls it Big Bad Harvey.
257
00:16:53,387 --> 00:16:59,645
Later in the episode, of course, we see
his full development into Two-Face.
258
00:16:59,852 --> 00:17:01,854
And I'll never forget that moment...
259
00:17:02,063 --> 00:17:05,943
...where he breaks open the door
out of his hospital room.
260
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:08,778
He then turns at the same time
that there's lightning...
261
00:17:08,986 --> 00:17:14,459
...and we see the image
of the second half of his face.
262
00:17:19,997 --> 00:17:22,466
Black Hand really came into his own...
263
00:17:22,667 --> 00:17:28,640
...in Green Lantern 43
when his origin was revealed.
264
00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:31,638
Taking a character like Black Hand
who was a minor villain...
265
00:17:31,842 --> 00:17:35,142
...and looking at him and saying,
"if we have an emotional spectrum..-...
266
00:17:35,346 --> 00:17:37,269
...and all the colors represent life...
267
00:17:38,057 --> 00:17:41,482
...the absence of color has to represent death.
There's got to be black."
268
00:17:41,686 --> 00:17:44,940
Black Hand, by becoming the avatar of death,
having a black ring...
269
00:17:45,147 --> 00:17:48,401
...committing suicide to become
a zombified Black Lantern...
270
00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:52,034
...which is one of the best moments
Doug Mahnke's ever drawn in his life.
271
00:17:52,238 --> 00:17:53,831
It's creepy, twisted, dark.
272
00:17:54,031 --> 00:17:58,036
Once people actually got to get inside
his head a little bit and see who he was...
273
00:17:58,244 --> 00:18:00,838
...then it became much more
of a connection.
274
00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:04,838
A hero's motive is usually straightforward:
275
00:18:05,042 --> 00:18:09,297
Save the day, serve justice, defeat evil.
276
00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:12,930
Villains, however,
are driven by a variety of forces.
277
00:18:13,134 --> 00:18:16,855
It could be as grandiose
as taking over the world...
278
00:18:17,054 --> 00:18:20,979
...or as direct as
forcing others to share their agony.
279
00:18:21,183 --> 00:18:27,566
They can be much more complex, personal
and often even relatabie.
280
00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:33,496
What makes a villain the most memorable is
the reason they're doing whatever it is they do.
281
00:18:33,696 --> 00:18:36,324
It's not the crime.
We've seen a hundred thousand crimes.
282
00:18:36,532 --> 00:18:38,785
We've seen Luthor break into banks.
283
00:18:38,993 --> 00:18:41,872
We've seen all these characters
do weird things.
284
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,047
But why they do it.
285
00:18:44,248 --> 00:18:48,628
Every one of us is driven by, you know,
our own singular, you know, needs and wants.
286
00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:49,883
So are villains.
287
00:18:53,758 --> 00:18:58,138
A character like the Anti-Monitor
from Crisis on Infinite Earths...
288
00:18:58,346 --> 00:19:01,190
...needs to absorb all the universes.
289
00:19:01,390 --> 00:19:03,438
And that's the only way he could survive.
290
00:19:03,643 --> 00:19:07,113
Behold the definition of true power.
291
00:19:07,313 --> 00:19:10,362
He's not doing it
because he cares at all about life.
292
00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:14,616
And that makes him frightening
because you can't reason with him.
293
00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:18,575
He's not an intellect
that you can talk to and say:
294
00:19:18,783 --> 00:19:21,036
"Don't you realize
you're doing something bad?
295
00:19:21,243 --> 00:19:25,214
Can't we figure out something else to do?"
He's not interested. He has one need.
296
00:19:25,414 --> 00:19:30,215
When I created Clayface Ill at the behest
of the late Julius Schwartz...
297
00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:34,014
...I came up with a character
who was a monster...
298
00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:36,138
...because he had screwed up.
299
00:19:36,342 --> 00:19:40,097
He was someone born with acromegaly,
essentially the elephant man disease.
300
00:19:40,304 --> 00:19:43,103
And in trying to fix himself...
301
00:19:43,307 --> 00:19:49,735
...became somebody who basically
can draw the calcium out of your body...
302
00:19:49,939 --> 00:19:53,034
...and reduce people
to little clay-like masses.
303
00:19:53,234 --> 00:19:56,363
But he didn't want to.
It's just how he survived.
304
00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:59,369
There may also be, certainly,
revenge involved.
305
00:19:59,573 --> 00:20:03,123
A lot of villains feel that they've been wronged
in some way...
306
00:20:03,327 --> 00:20:06,501
...whether it's by society
or a loved one or the police.
307
00:20:08,249 --> 00:20:12,846
With Mr. Freeze, when we developed the
character for Batman: The Animated Series...
308
00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:16,515
...I thought, "Somebody that cold
has to be that cold for a reason."
309
00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:21,973
Essentially he had some funding to carry out
his research to cure his wife, Nora.
310
00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:24,147
And the man who pulled that funding...
311
00:20:24,348 --> 00:20:29,070
...he then became the focus
of Mr. Freeze's evil-doing.
312
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:34,117
His mission is to go after the one man
who took away the love of his life.
313
00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,739
He actually says to Batman:
314
00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:43,122
"This is my sole purpose,
and if you get in the way, you'll pay for it."
315
00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:46,704
Which kind of implies,
“Look, if you just step aside, I won't harm you."
316
00:20:50,166 --> 00:20:52,840
As a villain, you can argue
whether he's a villain or not.
317
00:20:53,043 --> 00:20:59,551
Atrocitus, he was motivated
by anger at the Guardians of the Universe.
318
00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:03,514
His family got killed
because the Guardians of the Universe...
319
00:21:03,721 --> 00:21:06,770
...they created these manhunters, androids...
320
00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:09,727
...which were their predecessors
to the Green Lantern Corps.
321
00:21:09,935 --> 00:21:15,487
Atrocitus skips over
the denial stage of grief...
322
00:21:15,691 --> 00:21:18,820
...goes into anger and stays there.
Forget going into the later ones.
323
00:21:19,028 --> 00:21:21,702
The only bargain he makes is to stay angry...
324
00:21:21,906 --> 00:21:27,504
...and avenge his family
by going after the Guardians however he can.
325
00:21:27,953 --> 00:21:34,632
That's why the Joker is so interesting,
because he sort of doesn't have a motive.
326
00:21:35,211 --> 00:21:36,463
He knows he's crazy.
327
00:21:36,670 --> 00:21:40,766
Most of the crazy villains, most of the villains
who in comics, who are insane...
328
00:21:40,966 --> 00:21:42,764
...have no idea they are.
329
00:21:42,968 --> 00:21:45,687
But the Joker is aware of it and he loves it.
330
00:21:45,888 --> 00:21:49,768
He loves the concept that he is chaos
to Batman's logic and order.
331
00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:53,900
And, obviously, we have the most recent
incarnation on the big screen.
332
00:21:54,104 --> 00:21:58,325
Heath Ledger's Joker
is a perfect example of that.
333
00:21:58,526 --> 00:22:02,451
And he even says it.
He's a dog chasing a car.
334
00:22:02,655 --> 00:22:05,829
And when he catches it, he doesn't--
He doesn't know what he's doing.
335
00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:08,536
He just sort of does things.
336
00:22:09,453 --> 00:22:12,457
With Lex Luthor, he just wants power.
337
00:22:12,665 --> 00:22:14,212
But how does he attain it?
338
00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:16,214
How many ways does he have to go?
339
00:22:16,418 --> 00:22:18,716
Why is he jealous of Superman?
340
00:22:18,921 --> 00:22:21,299
Because he wants to be
more powerful than Superman.
341
00:22:21,507 --> 00:22:25,262
Those self-made men
tend to feel that they have license.
342
00:22:25,469 --> 00:22:28,018
Tend to feel that they're superior
to everybody else.
343
00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:33,774
He has these personality characteristics
that one would consider narcissistic...
344
00:22:33,978 --> 00:22:39,326
...in the sense that he has this element
of superiority...
345
00:22:39,525 --> 00:22:43,530
...that he is more powerful than others.
Thinks that he's more intelligent than others.
346
00:22:43,737 --> 00:22:47,913
And, therefore, believes that he deserves
more than what other people deserve.
347
00:22:48,117 --> 00:22:52,668
He is like the pinnacle of humanity.
He has made himself the best man.
348
00:22:52,872 --> 00:22:58,220
And then there's this alien
that's better than him.
349
00:22:58,419 --> 00:23:01,923
I did the revision of Luthor
back in the 1980s.
350
00:23:02,131 --> 00:23:08,434
I turned him into a character
who brought jobs to Metropolis.
351
00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:14,110
He provided museums
and philharmonic orchestras...
352
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:20,659
...and did all this stuff
as long as everyone knew he was the best.
353
00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:26,240
He wanted the power. He wanted the control.
And he was happy.
354
00:23:26,447 --> 00:23:29,246
He was delighted
because everyone honored him.
355
00:23:30,117 --> 00:23:32,916
And then Superman came along,
who could fly.
356
00:23:33,537 --> 00:23:34,584
It was ego.
357
00:23:34,788 --> 00:23:37,211
"I am the person
who looks down on everybody else."
358
00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:40,420
And the first time Superman and he meet,
Superman says:
359
00:23:40,628 --> 00:23:43,632
"I'll be around.
If you wanna find me, just look up."
360
00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:47,969
And suddenly there was somebody who was
over Luthor and he couldn't deal with that.
361
00:23:49,011 --> 00:23:54,233
ROMANO: I think that's also part of the ego
is that villains love to hear themselves talk.
362
00:23:54,433 --> 00:24:00,736
They love to hear their theories
as expounded upon by themselves.
363
00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:03,784
The Penguin made a comment
in one comic book:
364
00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:08,114
"What's the point in committing the perfect
crime if no one knows it was you who did it?"
365
00:24:08,322 --> 00:24:12,748
Lex Luther's brain, as evil as it is, is brilliant.
366
00:24:12,952 --> 00:24:16,172
Once he had him
and he was incapacitated...
367
00:24:16,372 --> 00:24:19,751
...to the degree that Lex could do anything
he wanted with him...
368
00:24:19,959 --> 00:24:24,430
...he could aggrandize himself in front of him.
"Let me tell you how brilliant I am."
369
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:28,931
You were great in your day, Superman,
but it just stands to reason.
370
00:24:29,134 --> 00:24:31,637
When it came time to cash in your chips...
371
00:24:31,845 --> 00:24:37,352
...this old, diseased, maniac,
would be your banker.
372
00:24:40,688 --> 00:24:42,690
Mind over muscle.
373
00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:48,992
The grandiose nature of the villains
figures into every one of those key aspects.
374
00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:52,291
Whatever their mission is in life,
the main thing they want to do.
375
00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:56,212
The one who wants to get the money,
he wants to do it in the outlandish way...
376
00:24:56,412 --> 00:24:57,880
...the creative, different way.
377
00:24:59,081 --> 00:25:02,676
When you think of some of the more
flamboyant villains in the DC Universe...
378
00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:04,674
...you sort of think about:
379
00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:07,222
Would they really be happy
with all the money in the world?
380
00:25:07,423 --> 00:25:09,642
Would they really be happy
with running the city?
381
00:25:09,842 --> 00:25:14,814
You know, it seems to be they're much happier
trying to take the city than actually having it.
382
00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:20,236
That's why you don't see a lot of books
about supervillains now running city hall...
383
00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:22,359
...or "Now I'm the mayor" or, you know...
384
00:25:22,563 --> 00:25:24,986
What are they gonna do with,
you know, a billion dollars?
385
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:27,864
So I do think it's sort of more the pursuit.
386
00:25:28,068 --> 00:25:31,663
It's not enough for the Riddler to rob a bank
or steal a diamond.
387
00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:36,210
He's got to drop clues on his way
to robbing a bank or stealing a diamond.
388
00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:40,415
The Riddler's probably the most self-defeating
villain in the history of comic books...
389
00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:46,470
...because he's always providing Batman
with a clue to his comeuppance.
390
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:50,300
He's obviously got some deep, dark...
391
00:25:50,507 --> 00:25:54,228
...damaged psychological reason that,
you know, deep down he wants to be caught.
392
00:25:54,428 --> 00:25:55,520
He wants to be punished.
393
00:25:55,721 --> 00:25:59,351
Otherwise he wouldn't leave ridiculous
riddles to be left for Batman to solve.
394
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,495
The journey toward evil follows a long road...
395
00:26:11,695 --> 00:26:13,789
...with many possible avenues.
396
00:26:13,989 --> 00:26:16,617
But for the fallen, the question remains:
397
00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:22,798
Were they born bad
or did they willingly turn down the dark path?
398
00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:25,922
Is it the end result of a lifetime of suffering...
399
00:26:26,126 --> 00:26:30,973
...or did one horrible incident
forever push them over the edge?
400
00:26:31,173 --> 00:26:35,895
ls there real evil?
Does evil in itself really exist?
401
00:26:36,095 --> 00:26:40,566
Or it is always a reaction to something?
Is it a reaction to some childhood trauma?
402
00:26:40,766 --> 00:26:46,819
There are a number of different, I guess,
causes or trajectories toward evil-doing...
403
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:48,990
...or toward a life of villainy.
404
00:26:49,191 --> 00:26:52,491
The best villains probably are born bad.
405
00:26:53,237 --> 00:26:54,580
You want them to be, at least.
406
00:26:54,780 --> 00:27:00,253
There's always, like, maybe they were born bad,
and then you had horrible incidents occur...
407
00:27:00,452 --> 00:27:03,422
...that sort of kept them down that path.
408
00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:10,176
We have yet really to have true examples
of these particular experiences...
409
00:27:10,379 --> 00:27:14,850
...that the Joker, Harvey Dent
and other villains have gone through.
410
00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:20,853
So I think there is a lot of room
for the fictional writing...
411
00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:25,903
...and the fictional exploration
of one event creating--
412
00:27:26,103 --> 00:27:31,735
Completely redefining a person
where it turns them to villains.
413
00:27:34,027 --> 00:27:36,655
I created a character called Man-Bat.
414
00:27:36,864 --> 00:27:39,333
It's this guy who is a Batman fan.
415
00:27:40,367 --> 00:27:42,961
He is a genius. He is a scientist.
416
00:27:43,162 --> 00:27:47,463
Works in museums.
But he's just a little off.
417
00:27:47,666 --> 00:27:51,796
And he thinks
that if he creates a serum out of bats...
418
00:27:52,004 --> 00:27:54,473
...that he can give it as a gift to Batman...
419
00:27:54,673 --> 00:27:59,429
...and Batman will have the attributes
of a bat.
420
00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:00,979
Wouldn't that be great?
421
00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:03,774
But somebody has to test it.
422
00:28:03,974 --> 00:28:06,568
So he tests it on himself.
423
00:28:06,768 --> 00:28:08,520
It's Jekyll and Hyde.
424
00:28:08,729 --> 00:28:11,608
He's turned into this creature.
He becomes a man-bat.
425
00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:14,739
You can say, "Man-Bat is a villain."
No, he's not a villain.
426
00:28:14,943 --> 00:28:18,789
He can be manipulated by villains,
but he's a good guy.
427
00:28:18,989 --> 00:28:20,582
In fact, he loves Batman.
428
00:28:20,782 --> 00:28:23,035
He thinks Batman
is the greatest hero on earth.
429
00:28:23,243 --> 00:28:25,086
And he wants to be like Batman.
430
00:28:25,287 --> 00:28:29,918
But if he's like Batman, he becomes
a drug addict then becomes this monster.
431
00:28:30,125 --> 00:28:32,719
You will bow down before me!
432
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,141
First you, and then one day, your heirs!
433
00:28:37,341 --> 00:28:39,810
General Zod
is a fantastic villain for Superman.
434
00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:45,642
While some of his actions aren't justifiable, you
completely understand why he is the man he is.
435
00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,651
You know, someone like the Scarecrow...
436
00:28:51,855 --> 00:28:54,153
...the fact that he was bullied
into submission...
437
00:28:54,358 --> 00:28:57,362
...and picked on
by way more powerful people than him...
438
00:28:57,569 --> 00:29:04,202
...and he was so scared to live his life because
he had this constant air of fear around him.
439
00:29:04,409 --> 00:29:08,380
It drove him to figure out
why that fear existed within him.
440
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:12,050
And then at the end of the day,
how he could inflict it upon other people.
441
00:29:12,251 --> 00:29:13,673
You're writing it and you see:
442
00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:17,347
"Why can't you just go left
instead of right at this seminal moment?"
443
00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:21,097
That kind of story, I think,
is equally inspiring and exciting to read...
444
00:29:21,301 --> 00:29:27,024
...for different reasons, but because mostly
you see that making the wrong choice...
445
00:29:27,224 --> 00:29:31,104
...or falling victim to sort of difficult
circumstances and letting them turn you...
446
00:29:31,311 --> 00:29:35,566
...and twist you that way is something that
gets you nowhere but Blackgate or Arkham...
447
00:29:35,774 --> 00:29:39,950
...or, you know, the Phantom Zone
or that sort of thing. Heh, heh.
448
00:29:41,613 --> 00:29:43,081
Consider this.
449
00:29:43,282 --> 00:29:49,710
The function and role of the hero and the villain
is all simply a matter of perspective.
450
00:29:49,913 --> 00:29:54,965
If we reversed focus and considered
the story from the point of view of the villain...
451
00:29:55,168 --> 00:29:59,298
...wouldn't they be the hero
and the hero the villain?
452
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,471
You have to think that pretty much
everyone's a hero in their own story.
453
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:08,182
The villains who are really
interesting characters...
454
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,234
...have an affirmative reason
for what they're doing.
455
00:30:11,435 --> 00:30:13,688
Their strength comes from...
456
00:30:13,895 --> 00:30:19,117
...absolute certainty, 100 percent certainty,
that they are correct.
457
00:30:19,693 --> 00:30:25,166
If they're uncertain about what they're doing,
then they're not interesting characters.
458
00:30:25,365 --> 00:30:30,337
Perspective of ants.
You know, do ants see us as giant villains?
459
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:34,917
We're walking around. It's ruining my picnic,
so I'm just stomping on ants. I'm not thinking.
460
00:30:35,125 --> 00:30:36,923
To someone's point of view down there...
461
00:30:37,127 --> 00:30:41,007
...we are these giant gods who are villainous
and are destroying their civilization.
462
00:30:41,214 --> 00:30:43,717
So it's really just about your point of view.
463
00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:49,394
Sinestro wanted to control things
so much on Korugar, his home world...
464
00:30:49,598 --> 00:30:54,650
...he wanted it to be safe for everybody that
he started to instill fear like, "I'm in control."
465
00:30:54,853 --> 00:30:59,984
Sinestro is a villain who really did see himself
as a hero and couldn't believe...
466
00:31:00,192 --> 00:31:03,787
...that he was being chopped off at the knees
by the Guardians all the time...
467
00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:07,036
...and being perceived to be someone
who wasn't looking out...
468
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,335
...for the better interest of the universe
and his own people.
469
00:31:10,535 --> 00:31:13,334
And, eventually, it pushed Sinestro
into a dark place...
470
00:31:13,538 --> 00:31:16,257
...where he finally just had
to use his powers...
471
00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:19,052
...to bring to light
what he thought was the best thing.
472
00:31:19,252 --> 00:31:23,507
And Hal Jordan ultimately had to stop
this guy who had gone renegade.
473
00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:25,934
So it just set them on a collision course.
474
00:31:27,052 --> 00:31:29,146
BROWN: Lex doesn't perceive himself
as a bad person.
475
00:31:29,346 --> 00:31:31,519
He doesn't perceive himself as anything...
476
00:31:31,723 --> 00:31:36,775
...but the agent of order and civilization.
477
00:31:37,813 --> 00:31:41,818
You hold the future of the entire planet
in your hands.
478
00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:46,200
- I'm here to take it back.
- Lex?
479
00:31:47,197 --> 00:31:49,791
You'll never threaten the world again.
480
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:54,625
I think Luthor is correct
in the way he views the world.
481
00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:57,709
He's right. Superman is an alien
and we shouldn't trust him.
482
00:31:57,916 --> 00:31:59,918
He has a lot of people on his side today...
483
00:32:00,127 --> 00:32:02,971
...in that I think in the '50s,
during the Eisenhower years...
484
00:32:03,171 --> 00:32:06,015
...the idea of a superman
with all these incredible powers...
485
00:32:06,216 --> 00:32:11,768
...that we can't stop even if we wanted to, but
he's a benign force for good, that's reassuring.
486
00:32:11,972 --> 00:32:16,022
In today's day and age,
I don't know if that's as reassuring.
487
00:32:16,226 --> 00:32:20,777
So the idea that there's a guy
who is a businessman...
488
00:32:20,981 --> 00:32:24,702
...you know, a tycoon
who's looking out for his fellow humans...
489
00:32:24,901 --> 00:32:28,701
...against a threat that actually
can't be contained or controlled...
490
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:32,034
...I think it really speaks to
I think a lot of people's fears...
491
00:32:32,242 --> 00:32:34,290
...about authority and power today.
492
00:32:37,998 --> 00:32:39,921
In modern story...
493
00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:42,002
...just as it is in fife...
494
00:32:42,210 --> 00:32:47,637
...the choice between right and wrong
often isn't so cut and dry.
495
00:32:48,175 --> 00:32:52,772
Heroes are flawed,
sometimes villains justified.
496
00:32:52,971 --> 00:32:56,817
But it's the villain
and sometimes society itself...
497
00:32:57,017 --> 00:32:59,896
...that further blurs the line.
498
00:33:00,103 --> 00:33:03,027
The same way there's a thin line
between love and hate, to me...
499
00:33:03,231 --> 00:33:08,078
...the best heroes are the ones
that probably act a little villainous.
500
00:33:08,278 --> 00:33:14,001
And the best villains are the ones
that might have martyr complexes.
501
00:33:14,201 --> 00:33:18,581
Where we are in comics right now, we probably
examine the line between good and evil more...
502
00:33:18,788 --> 00:33:21,541
...than ever had been done before.
503
00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:26,301
Batman is always trying to maintain
that control within himself.
504
00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:29,725
You know,
“This is how my parents were killed.
505
00:33:29,925 --> 00:33:33,555
I'm gonna make sure that
doesn't happen to anybody else."
506
00:33:33,762 --> 00:33:40,236
He is a guy who's fighting
to not become a bad guy.
507
00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:46,067
Had it not been for the humanizing
anchors of his humanity, Alfred...
508
00:33:46,274 --> 00:33:49,494
...and a few other key people
keeping him in line...
509
00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:52,163
...young Bruce Wayne, traumatized...
510
00:33:52,364 --> 00:33:56,790
...by witnessing the murder of his parents
before his eyes...
511
00:33:56,993 --> 00:34:01,373
...could easily
have gone the dark side of that line.
512
00:34:02,541 --> 00:34:04,543
All I've ever wanted to do is kill him.
513
00:34:04,751 --> 00:34:07,595
A day doesn't go by
when I don't think about subjecting him...
514
00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:10,390
...to every horrendous torture
he's dealt out to others.
515
00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:12,888
And then end him.
516
00:34:13,093 --> 00:34:17,769
But if I do that, if I allow myself
to go down into that place...
517
00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:21,484
...I'll never come back.
518
00:34:21,685 --> 00:34:24,734
There's sort of a power struggle
going on with the villains too.
519
00:34:24,938 --> 00:34:28,158
There's the character
that's sort of more of a gray nature...
520
00:34:28,358 --> 00:34:31,157
...who was originally maybe intended
to be a villain...
521
00:34:31,361 --> 00:34:37,039
...who cleaned up his act a little bit or who
is just so engaging that you like him a lot.
522
00:34:37,242 --> 00:34:39,165
You look at a character like Lobo.
523
00:34:39,369 --> 00:34:43,124
Here's this guy who should not be called
a hero by any stretch of the imagination...
524
00:34:43,331 --> 00:34:46,335
...but he's got just enough honor,
I guess you'd say...
525
00:34:46,543 --> 00:34:48,511
...like, you know, he's a bounty hunter.
526
00:34:48,712 --> 00:34:52,137
If he goes after somebody,
for better or for worse, he'll honor the deal.
527
00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:54,513
And he'll track down the guy
and bring him in.
528
00:34:54,718 --> 00:34:58,814
The appeal of Lobo is just the over-the-top
black comedy and violence...
529
00:34:59,014 --> 00:35:00,607
...I think the character brings.
530
00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:02,935
You know, he's a badass biker
from outer space.
531
00:35:03,143 --> 00:35:04,690
Who doesn't love somebody like that?
532
00:35:04,894 --> 00:35:07,522
GUGGENHEIM:
Deadshot is nice and simple and clear.
533
00:35:07,731 --> 00:35:11,326
He's like a bullet. He goes from point A
to point B and he doesn't waver.
534
00:35:11,526 --> 00:35:14,905
KIRSHEN: He's got layers to him.
He's not just doing this for the sake of fun.
535
00:35:15,113 --> 00:35:18,959
He's doing it because this is the thing
he's good at. He's good at killing people.
536
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:20,661
And he only does it for money.
537
00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:25,750
With a character like Deathstroke,
I actually did not create him to be a villain.
538
00:35:25,957 --> 00:35:32,841
I created him thinking he was a character
who was morally ambiguous...
539
00:35:33,048 --> 00:35:35,847
...who was doing certain things
for his own reasons.
540
00:35:36,051 --> 00:35:39,476
He was a hunter, he was a mercenary,
he was an assassin...
541
00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:43,434
...but always on a political, for-hire basis.
542
00:35:43,642 --> 00:35:49,740
And then because his son was trapped by the
H.l.V.E., he was forced into becoming a villain.
543
00:35:49,939 --> 00:35:53,739
He didn't want to be, and no matter
how many times he wants to get out of it...
544
00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:57,493
...he can't because he has a certain
code of ethics...
545
00:35:57,697 --> 00:36:02,123
...that says he promised
to complete his son's mission...
546
00:36:02,327 --> 00:36:06,582
...and he can't stop until he does,
even though he knows it's not his mission...
547
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:08,667
...and even though he knows it's wrong.
548
00:36:09,209 --> 00:36:12,304
Amanda Waller is one of the
greatest characters in DC comics.
549
00:36:12,504 --> 00:36:16,134
She is the black ops government leader
of the Suicide Squad...
550
00:36:16,341 --> 00:36:20,141
...the program that recruits supervillains
and forces them to do missions for them.
551
00:36:20,345 --> 00:36:23,144
And she is manipulative, super smart.
552
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:27,478
Amanda Waller can only be viewed as a
bad guy because she makes the tough choices.
553
00:36:27,686 --> 00:36:28,733
That's the reason why.
554
00:36:28,937 --> 00:36:34,569
And what she's doing is she is willing
to sacrifice the individual for the greater good.
555
00:36:34,776 --> 00:36:38,451
Amanda Waller continues to be a presence
in the DC universe.
556
00:36:38,655 --> 00:36:41,875
She's created a Justice League
called the Justice League of America...
557
00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:45,454
...that is designed to take out
the real Justice League if need be.
558
00:36:45,662 --> 00:36:48,836
She's prepared for the worst
because she's experienced the worst.
559
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,466
She has a very clear moral line and whether
you agree with it or not, it doesn't shift.
560
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:56,469
That's why you'll have that discussion
going back and forth...
561
00:36:56,673 --> 00:36:58,926
...of whether Amanda Waller
is a hero or villain.
562
00:37:00,385 --> 00:37:03,764
Heroes typically have a strong moral code.
563
00:37:03,972 --> 00:37:05,315
"I Will not kill."
564
00:37:05,515 --> 00:37:07,438
"I will uphold the law."
565
00:37:07,642 --> 00:37:10,020
But just because villains commit crimes...
566
00:37:10,228 --> 00:37:13,198
...does not mean
they are completely without principles.
567
00:37:13,398 --> 00:37:20,156
There does exist honor among thieves,
even if that honor is warped and twisted.
568
00:37:20,363 --> 00:37:22,616
I don't think you can generalize
about villains...
569
00:37:22,824 --> 00:37:26,499
...the same way as you can generalize
about heroes across the board.
570
00:37:26,703 --> 00:37:30,128
You know, I do think that there
are some villains who have a moral code...
571
00:37:30,331 --> 00:37:33,380
...or have a line
that they personally will not cross.
572
00:37:33,585 --> 00:37:38,716
Two-Face, where he basically lets his morality
be decided by a flip of a coin.
573
00:37:38,923 --> 00:37:41,927
Sinestro certainly has a code of ethics
he thinks he's following.
574
00:37:42,135 --> 00:37:44,012
And in a strange way he is following it.
575
00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:47,770
He believes in the Green Lantern Corps
so much he's willing to be a villain to them.
576
00:37:47,974 --> 00:37:49,851
Allow me to introduce myself.
577
00:37:50,059 --> 00:37:53,108
I am he who is called Ra's al Ghul.
578
00:37:53,313 --> 00:37:55,657
Ra's al Ghul knows who Batman is.
579
00:37:55,857 --> 00:37:57,234
He can give it away.
580
00:37:57,442 --> 00:38:01,788
He doesn't because there's sort
of a respect that he has for Batman.
581
00:38:01,988 --> 00:38:05,208
And he has this hope that one day
Batman will come to his side...
582
00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:07,661
...so he doesn't destroy Batman that way.
583
00:38:07,869 --> 00:38:11,749
Specifically, the Rogues, they won't kill
somebody. That's where they draw the line.
584
00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:15,551
They do have their own-- It may be
a warped code, but they have their code.
585
00:38:15,752 --> 00:38:18,926
If you go to the Rogues and say,
“You have a chance to kill the Flash.
586
00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:23,010
Here's the plan. This is how we're gonna
kill the Flash. We're gonna kill the Flash."
587
00:38:23,218 --> 00:38:25,687
Captain Cold would be like,
"You're out of your mind.
588
00:38:25,887 --> 00:38:28,561
If we kill the Flash
the whole Justice League's on top us.
589
00:38:28,765 --> 00:38:30,062
We don't need that right now.
590
00:38:30,266 --> 00:38:33,896
We have this thing going. We don't wanna
kill the Flash. He's just in our way."
591
00:38:34,103 --> 00:38:37,107
There's versions of the Rogues
who have been more bloodthirsty.
592
00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:42,287
Their versions, I don't respond to because
I don't think that's who the Rogues are.
593
00:38:42,487 --> 00:38:44,865
The last thing they would ever do
is kill the Flash.
594
00:38:45,073 --> 00:38:47,371
That doesn't mean
they're uninteresting to watch...
595
00:38:47,575 --> 00:38:50,249
...or uninteresting characters
for the Flash to go against.
596
00:38:50,453 --> 00:38:54,128
That makes them more interesting.
What are their motivations?
597
00:39:03,132 --> 00:39:07,228
The best villains represent
the counterpoint to the hero.
598
00:39:07,428 --> 00:39:09,897
A polar opposite in many respects...
599
00:39:10,098 --> 00:39:15,696
...but also bearing subtle
or sometimes striking similarities.
600
00:39:15,895 --> 00:39:19,866
The villains often mirror
the hero's dark reflection...
601
00:39:20,066 --> 00:39:24,412
...the result of a divergent path,
a different road taken.
602
00:39:24,612 --> 00:39:29,334
I think a good nemesis for a hero
needs to have some of the hero in him...
603
00:39:29,534 --> 00:39:32,287
...have some of the qualities
of a hero in him.
604
00:39:32,495 --> 00:39:36,375
You are defined as much
by the dark side of the mythology...
605
00:39:36,583 --> 00:39:39,336
...as you are defined
by this light side of mythology.
606
00:39:39,544 --> 00:39:43,765
So for every mythology about demons,
there need to be angels and vice versa.
607
00:39:43,965 --> 00:39:47,344
You need to have a degree of polar opposite.
608
00:39:47,552 --> 00:39:49,850
At the same time,
there needs to be those things...
609
00:39:50,054 --> 00:39:52,102
...that make them mirror images
of themselves.
610
00:39:52,307 --> 00:39:55,186
You have Ocean Master
who is kind of a mirror of Aquaman.
611
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:59,364
He is an Atlantean king, like Aquaman,
but he's Aquaman gone wrong.
612
00:39:59,564 --> 00:40:02,033
He's "What if Aquaman
went down a different path?"
613
00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:04,361
In the case of Flash, it's Reverse-Flash.
614
00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:07,789
Literally, it's a reverse version of the Flash,
a mirror of him.
615
00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:10,037
And then the opposite
would be Captain Cold.
616
00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:12,664
On first blush you're like,
“Oh, it's ice. He slips."
617
00:40:12,869 --> 00:40:15,497
You look at Captain Cold
and you analyze him a bit more.
618
00:40:15,705 --> 00:40:18,800
When introduced, he was called
“The Man Who Mastered Absolute Zero."
619
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,378
And absolute zero
means zero atomic motion.
620
00:40:21,586 --> 00:40:23,839
That means the atoms do not move.
621
00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:27,472
You know, when things are colder,
they're slower on the atomic level.
622
00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:30,645
So that's why Captain Cold, to me,
always captured...
623
00:40:30,845 --> 00:40:33,268
...the essence of an opposite
of the Flash.
624
00:40:33,473 --> 00:40:35,271
When you look at somebody like Batman...
625
00:40:35,475 --> 00:40:38,069
...Catwoman is certainly
the sexual challenge to him.
626
00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:40,397
Riddler is the intellectual challenge.
627
00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:44,075
Penguin is almost a mockery
of what Bruce Wayne is on the social scene.
628
00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:49,247
And the Joker is the horrific version
of what Batman is to ordinary people.
629
00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:53,748
Whereas Batman scares criminals, the Joker
scares and horrifies the ordinary people.
630
00:40:53,952 --> 00:40:58,128
Black Adam is another
good opposite number character.
631
00:40:58,331 --> 00:41:03,007
Kind of got a costume that's similar
to Shazam's costume, but it's black.
632
00:41:03,211 --> 00:41:09,184
He's also another member of a police force
that has kind of fallen from grace...
633
00:41:09,384 --> 00:41:15,642
...the Wizards Protector Society, which is what
Shazam is and what Black Adam was.
634
00:41:16,307 --> 00:41:19,402
The Crime Syndicate characters
that have been around for decades...
635
00:41:19,602 --> 00:41:23,607
...they come from a version--
A parallel Earth, a version of our Earth...
636
00:41:23,815 --> 00:41:27,035
...where everyone who's good is bad
and everyone who is bad is good.
637
00:41:27,235 --> 00:41:30,660
And so you've got
an evil Superman in Ultraman.
638
00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:33,833
Then you have Owlman,
who is a dark version of Batman.
639
00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:36,832
And Superwoman,
who is a dark version of Wonder Woman.
640
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,415
You have Johnny Quick and Power Ring.
Power Ring is this Green Lantern...
641
00:41:40,623 --> 00:41:42,170
...who's a coward.
642
00:41:42,375 --> 00:41:46,221
The Crime Syndicate represent the Justice
League completely flipped on its head...
643
00:41:46,421 --> 00:41:49,174
...and if they were horrible, horrible,
evil people.
644
00:41:49,382 --> 00:41:52,226
In terms of what they can accomplish
and who they can defeat...
645
00:41:52,427 --> 00:41:56,022
...they're on par with the Justice League,
but their goals are so perverted...
646
00:41:56,222 --> 00:41:59,601
...compared to the honor and the morality
that the Justice League have.
647
00:41:59,809 --> 00:42:05,782
Which leaves the governments of the world
with two choices, bow down to us or die.
648
00:42:07,150 --> 00:42:10,950
The best supervillains that resonate the most,
they do it on two levels.
649
00:42:11,154 --> 00:42:16,536
They do it-- How they psychologically
reflect or challenge your superhero...
650
00:42:16,743 --> 00:42:21,044
...and then also, in the story,
what they've done to affect the superhero's life.
651
00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:24,126
If there is not that personal connection,
it just weakens it.
652
00:42:24,333 --> 00:42:27,428
It just becomes another person trying
to do something dastardly.
653
00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:31,474
When well-paired, the villain's been able
to get inside the superhero's head.
654
00:42:31,674 --> 00:42:35,975
It's almost as if he knows precisely what makes
them vulnerable, what their greatest fear is.
655
00:42:36,179 --> 00:42:38,648
When they make it personal
and can make it personal...
656
00:42:38,848 --> 00:42:43,069
...when the villains have the knowledge to
make it personal and know your inner secrets...
657
00:42:43,269 --> 00:42:44,771
...that's when things get real.
658
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,108
Talia al Ghul, she fell in love with Batman.
659
00:42:48,316 --> 00:42:51,695
So when it comes to the point
of killing Batman...
660
00:42:51,903 --> 00:42:54,747
...many times in many stories,
she draws the line there.
661
00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:57,826
She will not kill him.
She wants him for her own.
662
00:43:00,828 --> 00:43:05,880
Star Sapphire was not only Hal Jordan's boss,
but also girlfriend.
663
00:43:06,084 --> 00:43:08,052
And when she was manipulated...
664
00:43:08,252 --> 00:43:12,758
...she did not know consciously
that she had become Star Sapphire.
665
00:43:12,965 --> 00:43:16,390
Then you've got this interesting dynamic...
666
00:43:16,594 --> 00:43:21,942
...of when he ultimately finds out that this
is his girlfriend and he's got to battle her.
667
00:43:22,141 --> 00:43:27,318
And how does he battle her
when she's so smart without hurting her?
668
00:43:27,522 --> 00:43:33,495
That kind of conflict of people
who were once friends and become enemies...
669
00:43:33,694 --> 00:43:39,372
...you know, it's almost like the Greek
tragedies, these enormous stories of betrayal.
670
00:43:39,575 --> 00:43:41,577
I just ended my run
with Green Lantern 20.
671
00:43:41,786 --> 00:43:48,089
And as I was wrapping it up the story kind
of organically revolved around not only Hal...
672
00:43:48,292 --> 00:43:51,796
...but Hal and Sinestro and that relationship
is really key to Green Lantern.
673
00:43:52,004 --> 00:43:56,225
There is this moment where Sinestro,
who blames the Guardians of the Universe...
674
00:43:56,425 --> 00:43:58,678
...who have done all these horrible things...
675
00:43:58,886 --> 00:44:01,685
...against the Corps they created--
They tried to destroy it.
676
00:44:01,889 --> 00:44:04,768
They're ultimately the big bad guys
of the piece.
677
00:44:04,976 --> 00:44:08,276
And Sinestro vows to destroy them.
"I'm going to kill them one by one."
678
00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:11,198
And Hal says, "I can't let you do that."
And he grabs him.
679
00:44:11,399 --> 00:44:13,902
And Sinestro says,
"You think they can still be saved?
680
00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:16,204
You think that they can be redeemed?"
681
00:44:16,404 --> 00:44:19,248
And Hal says,
“This isn't about them, this is about you."
682
00:44:19,448 --> 00:44:21,291
He says, "I wanna save you.
683
00:44:21,492 --> 00:44:24,996
You don't have to lower yourself to this level.
You don't have to kill them.
684
00:44:25,204 --> 00:44:27,047
You can be a great Green Lantern."
685
00:44:27,248 --> 00:44:30,297
And he goes, "Because I believe in you."
686
00:44:30,501 --> 00:44:34,802
And Sinestro looks at him and he says,
“Jordan, it's too late. I've already killed them."
687
00:44:35,006 --> 00:44:39,477
And you reveal that Sinestro has already
wiped out the Guardians, one by one by one.
688
00:44:39,677 --> 00:44:41,850
And Sinestro's like, "I'm leaving forever.
689
00:44:42,054 --> 00:44:44,728
But before I go, you had a question
you wanted to ask me."
690
00:44:44,932 --> 00:44:48,311
And Hal says, you know,
"Were we ever friends, Sinestro?"
691
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:51,193
And Sinestro, who has never called him
by his first name--
692
00:44:51,397 --> 00:44:52,740
He's always called him Jordan.
693
00:44:52,940 --> 00:44:55,659
--Says, "You know, that's the tragedy
of all this, Jordan."
694
00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:58,784
He goes, "Hal, we'll always be friends."
695
00:45:01,157 --> 00:45:04,707
Might is not reserved solely for the just.
696
00:45:04,911 --> 00:45:08,506
While heroes can exhibit
incredible strength or skills...
697
00:45:08,706 --> 00:45:14,509
...villains may possess abilities equal to
or even greater than their foes.
698
00:45:14,712 --> 00:45:18,216
It's not enough for villains merely
to offer a challenge to the heroes...
699
00:45:18,966 --> 00:45:23,722
...but, rather, they must present
the all-too-real possibility...
700
00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:28,151
...that good might not triumph over evil.
701
00:45:28,351 --> 00:45:30,900
You're defined by the height
of the mountain you climb.
702
00:45:31,103 --> 00:45:35,904
And so the higher the mountain,
the more the epic struggle it is to climb that...
703
00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:39,703
...the greater the adventure,
the greater the hero.
704
00:45:39,904 --> 00:45:44,501
If I have the powers of the gods,
then am I not a god myself?
705
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,954
A good villain,
you have to believe that he can win.
706
00:45:48,162 --> 00:45:53,544
If you have Superman fighting
a common mugger, that's not interesting.
707
00:45:53,751 --> 00:45:55,424
You know that Superman's gonna win.
708
00:45:55,628 --> 00:46:00,350
The idea that Lex Luthor can out-think
Superman, that he is smarter than Superman...
709
00:46:00,549 --> 00:46:06,852
...and no matter what Superman's powers are,
Lex Luthor can think of a way to defeat him...
710
00:46:07,056 --> 00:46:11,357
...makes that dynamic
between the pair of them brilliant.
711
00:46:12,812 --> 00:46:15,907
ADAMS:
It's why we created Ra's al Ghul.
712
00:46:16,107 --> 00:46:19,577
You need a Moriarty for Sherlock Holmes.
713
00:46:19,777 --> 00:46:25,910
If Sherlock Holmes is superior
to every criminal out there...
714
00:46:26,117 --> 00:46:27,289
...what's his value?
715
00:46:27,493 --> 00:46:31,418
So we want Sherlock Holmes
to have a Moriarty.
716
00:46:31,622 --> 00:46:34,045
We want Batman to have a Ra's al Ghul.
717
00:46:34,250 --> 00:46:36,469
And we want it to be neck and neck.
718
00:46:41,299 --> 00:46:44,519
Superman has all his powers
because he's on Earth...
719
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,020
...and watching Zod discover
that he has those same powers...
720
00:46:49,223 --> 00:46:53,103
...I think Superman and Zod
could fight for centuries.
721
00:46:53,311 --> 00:46:55,985
And basically, it just comes down to...
722
00:46:56,188 --> 00:47:01,740
The person who's gonna win that fight
is the person who puts the most heart into it.
723
00:47:01,944 --> 00:47:05,414
When I was writing Superman,
I created the character called Mongul...
724
00:47:05,614 --> 00:47:08,242
...who has become very big
in the mythos since.
725
00:47:08,451 --> 00:47:11,045
Basically, because I felt,
"All right, this is silly.
726
00:47:11,245 --> 00:47:13,668
You've got a guy here who moves planets...
727
00:47:13,873 --> 00:47:17,503
...and he has to fight a guy
he has to outsmart to beat.
728
00:47:17,710 --> 00:47:20,384
What about somebody
who can kick his butt?"
729
00:47:20,588 --> 00:47:23,558
So I came up with Mongul,
who was bigger and strong and taller.
730
00:47:23,758 --> 00:47:25,931
And he gives somebody
a physical challenge.
731
00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:32,689
Somebody Superman has to work to beat,
just on a hands-on basis.
732
00:47:35,561 --> 00:47:40,783
Darkseid is a great villain just because
of the amount of power that he holds.
733
00:47:40,983 --> 00:47:46,740
He's godlike and it's not easy to fight him
and come back alive.
734
00:47:46,947 --> 00:47:52,374
Going up against a character like Darkseid
really proves your hero's worth.
735
00:47:52,787 --> 00:47:57,918
The Anti-Monitor is a character like Darkseid,
one of our cosmic-level villains.
736
00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,594
He's a force of nature, a force of danger.
737
00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:05,767
Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor
can literally cross time and space...
738
00:48:05,966 --> 00:48:11,097
...and they represent a threat that, again,
only a hero such as Superman...
739
00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:17,688
...or a hero of that level can face and that's why
they are almost more frightening.
740
00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:20,865
Again, to an earlier point,
that's why we need a Superman...
741
00:48:21,065 --> 00:48:24,490
...because they have to deal with threats
that we as common people can't.
742
00:48:26,237 --> 00:48:30,162
In a battle of equals,
the outcome always remains uncertain...
743
00:48:31,117 --> 00:48:34,667
...and, on occasion,
fortune favors the fiendish.
744
00:48:35,788 --> 00:48:38,257
The villain escapes soot-free.
745
00:48:38,457 --> 00:48:42,382
They get their lucky break
or manage to land the killing blow.
746
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:49,474
What does it mean when the hero falls in battle
and the villain emerges victorious?
747
00:48:49,677 --> 00:48:54,558
If it's all too clean and too neat,
why are we continuing to buy books?
748
00:48:54,765 --> 00:48:58,110
Why are we continuing
to read these stories...
749
00:48:58,310 --> 00:49:01,689
...if we don't have the sense
that there's a certain danger...
750
00:49:01,897 --> 00:49:04,867
...or a mortal danger to our hero?
751
00:49:05,067 --> 00:49:07,911
You know, we have a very clear statement.
We said, you know:
752
00:49:08,112 --> 00:49:10,661
"The hero has to win every time.
753
00:49:10,865 --> 00:49:12,913
The villain only has to win once."
754
00:49:13,117 --> 00:49:16,997
Even though we want ultimate good
to triumph over evil...
755
00:49:17,204 --> 00:49:21,209
...there will be battles along the way
where there are setbacks.
756
00:49:21,417 --> 00:49:26,014
The question of "Can the villain succeed?"
is always a tricky one.
757
00:49:26,213 --> 00:49:27,260
I believe they can...
758
00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:33,814
...but obviously you have to make certain
that you're careful, the extent of it.
759
00:49:34,013 --> 00:49:35,856
There are different kinds of villains...
760
00:49:36,056 --> 00:49:39,276
...and thus different kinds of impact
to what a villain does.
761
00:49:39,477 --> 00:49:41,605
Most of the criminal villains...
762
00:49:41,812 --> 00:49:45,112
...the guys who are just out there
to rob a bank or do whatever...
763
00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:47,660
...don't leave lasting impact.
764
00:49:47,860 --> 00:49:53,993
The ones like the Joker
potentially can affect an entire series.
765
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,544
Don't you just love a happy ending?
766
00:49:56,744 --> 00:50:01,420
One of the risks of being a superhero
is that the people that you love...
767
00:50:01,624 --> 00:50:05,128
...whether they're superheroes
themselves or citizens...
768
00:50:05,336 --> 00:50:06,929
...you put them at risk.
769
00:50:07,129 --> 00:50:11,430
And so with Jason Todd,
essentially that is what happened...
770
00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:14,854
...where the Joker murders him...
771
00:50:15,054 --> 00:50:21,403
...and we have one of these rare instances
where a primary character was murdered.
772
00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:24,606
For Batman, that meant incredible guilt.
773
00:50:24,813 --> 00:50:27,942
That meant feeling
that he was responsible for the death...
774
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,199
...and that was what
the Joker essentially wanted.
775
00:50:33,572 --> 00:50:36,667
I always loved Black Manta.
You never knew his real name.
776
00:50:36,867 --> 00:50:40,963
He had that helmet that covered his face.
He killed Aquaman's baby.
777
00:50:41,163 --> 00:50:45,339
You have to be a real sick,
cold bastard to kill a baby.
778
00:50:45,543 --> 00:50:48,592
It felt so horrific to me
that I couldn't do anything...
779
00:50:48,796 --> 00:50:52,676
...but look at this character and go,
“This is the coldest guy in the DC universe."
780
00:50:52,883 --> 00:50:55,682
In a lot of ways,
I think Black Manta to Aquaman...
781
00:50:55,886 --> 00:51:00,016
...is very much akin to
what Bane is to the Batman.
782
00:51:01,850 --> 00:51:04,228
Both characters were very capable...
783
00:51:04,436 --> 00:51:08,486
...and did cause great harm and pain
to the main characters.
784
00:51:08,691 --> 00:51:13,071
When Bane broke Bruce Wayne's back...
785
00:51:13,279 --> 00:51:16,453
...it was proof positive to all the readers
around the world...
786
00:51:16,657 --> 00:51:19,536
...that, yes, you got this right
all these years.
787
00:51:20,202 --> 00:51:22,500
This is a superhero
who has no superpowers...
788
00:51:22,705 --> 00:51:26,255
...who, arguably, his greatest superpower
is his humanity...
789
00:51:26,458 --> 00:51:27,505
...who is vulnerable...
790
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:30,805
...whom you can identify with
because he has no superpowers.
791
00:51:31,005 --> 00:51:35,431
And now, maybe for the first time,
we're taking that one extra step.
792
00:51:35,634 --> 00:51:37,181
We are crossing the Rubicon...
793
00:51:37,386 --> 00:51:40,811
...and we are showing you,
and his back is broken...
794
00:51:41,015 --> 00:51:44,610
...and Batman is either dead
or incapacitated.
795
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:48,656
And I think readers still remember that.
Readers have a visceral reaction to that.
796
00:51:48,856 --> 00:51:51,780
This is someone who could hurt Batman.
This is someone Batman...
797
00:51:51,984 --> 00:51:54,362
...even in his calmest of nights
wakes up and thinks:
798
00:51:54,570 --> 00:51:57,870
"This is a guy who once really severely hurt me,
who's still out there."
799
00:51:58,073 --> 00:52:01,919
So I think that's why Bane still has
that kind of attraction to readers.
800
00:52:04,288 --> 00:52:08,839
What Bane was to Batman,
Doomsday was to Superman...
801
00:52:09,043 --> 00:52:12,422
...the embodiment
of brutal physical force.
802
00:52:14,381 --> 00:52:18,011
This is the great fear Superman has.
803
00:52:18,218 --> 00:52:22,268
Having a foe that he cannot find a way
to stop one way or another.
804
00:52:22,473 --> 00:52:24,646
He was designed to kill Superman.
805
00:52:24,850 --> 00:52:28,024
Every time he dies,
he comes back stronger...
806
00:52:28,228 --> 00:52:31,528
...with whatever killed him now
no longer something that can kill him.
807
00:52:31,732 --> 00:52:34,952
Doomsday stirs up massive chaos...
808
00:52:35,152 --> 00:52:40,033
...and delivers the hero
his biggest defeat ever.
809
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:42,959
Doomsday kills Superman.
810
00:52:43,827 --> 00:52:49,004
I can't think of another villain where his
appearance on the stage is enough that...
811
00:52:49,208 --> 00:52:51,927
...you know, the world is shaking.
812
00:52:52,127 --> 00:52:56,883
I would even argue that the death of Superman
story itself isn't even a story.
813
00:52:57,091 --> 00:52:58,718
It's just a fight scene.
814
00:52:58,926 --> 00:53:02,351
The story comes
from how the world reacts afterwards.
815
00:53:02,554 --> 00:53:04,807
When you get to see
the "Funeral For a Friend"...
816
00:53:05,015 --> 00:53:07,143
...you see what Superman meant
to the world...
817
00:53:07,351 --> 00:53:10,150
...which reflected what the real world
did a lot...
818
00:53:10,354 --> 00:53:13,233
...when they thought we were really
gonna leave Superman dead.
819
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,989
They went crazy sad.
820
00:53:18,987 --> 00:53:22,912
Any time you have that level
of tragedy impacting a DC character...
821
00:53:23,117 --> 00:53:26,792
...we go through and show
the repercussions of that act...
822
00:53:26,995 --> 00:53:30,090
...and how it affects the relationships
between all the heroes...
823
00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:32,884
...and the impact it has
on all their friends and family.
824
00:53:33,085 --> 00:53:35,338
And so, to me, it's not done lightly.
825
00:53:35,546 --> 00:53:38,299
We don't have last episodes.
We have the next episode.
826
00:53:38,507 --> 00:53:41,636
And we do have to deal
with the repercussions.
827
00:53:41,844 --> 00:53:45,439
And, again,
if the bad guys are winning too often...
828
00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:51,066
...then that hero doesn't deserve his own title
and he should probably stop being a hero.
829
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:54,399
Superman died, but that wasn't
what the story was about.
830
00:53:54,606 --> 00:53:57,155
His death was a piece of that story.
831
00:53:57,359 --> 00:53:59,327
It was almost the beginning of the story.
832
00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:03,499
And then Dan Jurgens and Mike Carlin, all
those guys created Reign of the Supermen...
833
00:54:03,699 --> 00:54:05,997
...which is all about Superman's return.
834
00:54:06,744 --> 00:54:09,247
With Batman breaking his back,
it was the same thing.
835
00:54:09,455 --> 00:54:10,707
How strong is Bruce Wayne?
836
00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:13,087
His back's broken,
but the city still needs him.
837
00:54:13,292 --> 00:54:15,465
So he heals himself
and comes back as Batman.
838
00:54:15,669 --> 00:54:18,513
He overcomes that.
But sometimes the villains do win...
839
00:54:18,714 --> 00:54:20,887
...but it's only momentarily.
840
00:54:21,091 --> 00:54:26,848
Any general can tell you it's not the battles,
it's the ultimate war.
841
00:54:27,055 --> 00:54:31,606
And I think if you look at the grand scope
of the DC universe...
842
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:34,188
...it is ultimately good triumphing over evil.
843
00:54:34,396 --> 00:54:37,070
The best stories,
the stories that kind of last with you...
844
00:54:37,274 --> 00:54:41,620
...are the ones that even though good wins,
there's a price to be had for that victory.
845
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:47,077
I don't consider the hero having a victory
if it doesn't come at a cost.
846
00:54:47,284 --> 00:54:51,289
They have to have something sacrificed,
either personal or physical...
847
00:54:51,497 --> 00:54:53,170
...that occurs every time they win.
848
00:54:53,373 --> 00:54:58,550
They have to be giving up something
of what they are in order to help mankind.
849
00:54:58,754 --> 00:55:01,758
They're making a sacrifice every time
they put that costume on...
850
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:06,141
...every time they're confronting something
and putting themselves at risk.
851
00:55:06,345 --> 00:55:10,066
So, therefore, there should be something
given up in their social life...
852
00:55:10,265 --> 00:55:12,359
...their personal life, about who they are.
853
00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:15,403
They should be a little broken
because of what they've done.
854
00:55:15,604 --> 00:55:19,575
Only thing that keeps them going is that
they're doing something for the better good...
855
00:55:19,775 --> 00:55:21,402
...and for helping other people.
856
00:55:27,950 --> 00:55:31,204
In the history of comics, DC in particular...
857
00:55:31,411 --> 00:55:34,381
...there are not hundreds,
there are thousands of supervillains.
858
00:55:34,581 --> 00:55:35,958
Thousands of supervillains.
859
00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:38,669
And there's no way
we can talk about all of them.
860
00:55:38,877 --> 00:55:40,845
We can only talk about a fraction of them.
861
00:55:41,046 --> 00:55:44,471
I think that the very fact that we have
such a wide variety of villains...
862
00:55:44,675 --> 00:55:46,894
...that can be anything from, you know...
863
00:55:47,094 --> 00:55:50,769
...essentially, a high-tech bank robber
to someone like Darkseid who is a new god...
864
00:55:50,973 --> 00:55:53,226
...is something I think strengthens
our universe.
865
00:55:53,433 --> 00:55:57,358
It gives us, you know,
a great spectrum of villainy.
866
00:55:57,563 --> 00:56:00,908
This spectrum of evil
is diverse and dynamic...
867
00:56:01,108 --> 00:56:06,831
...falling into a vast array of villainous
categories and characteristics.
868
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:11,661
Indeed, the tropes and commonalities
of villainy are far-reaching.
869
00:56:11,869 --> 00:56:14,793
First off is the uncontrollable beast...
870
00:56:14,997 --> 00:56:21,221
...that rages and rains down destruction
on those unfortunate souls caught in its path...
871
00:56:21,420 --> 00:56:22,592
...the monster.
872
00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:24,639
My favorite monster is my--
873
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,344
The classic monsters, the reason
that they're enduring and scary...
874
00:56:28,552 --> 00:56:31,681
...is because they almost--
They look like people that you love...
875
00:56:31,889 --> 00:56:33,891
...or that you care about or that you trust.
876
00:56:34,099 --> 00:56:35,897
Your neighbors, your wife, your mother.
877
00:56:36,101 --> 00:56:40,197
Then something infects them or turns them
into something that's an unstoppable force.
878
00:56:40,397 --> 00:56:44,948
Probably the most illustrious monster of the
Golden Age of comics was Solomon Grundy.
879
00:56:45,152 --> 00:56:46,278
He's an animated corpse.
880
00:56:46,486 --> 00:56:49,706
The heroes, even Batman,
is okay with trying to destroy Grundy...
881
00:56:49,907 --> 00:56:51,329
...because he's dead already.
882
00:56:51,533 --> 00:56:54,286
I like Bizarro Superman
because he's just so off-the-wall.
883
00:56:54,494 --> 00:56:58,044
I mean, he's like just sort of
a crazy super powerful...
884
00:56:58,248 --> 00:57:02,219
...almost Frankenstein monster
version of Superman.
885
00:57:02,419 --> 00:57:04,513
A villain as old as literature...
886
00:57:04,713 --> 00:57:08,343
...but only heightened by the advent
of the atomic bomb...
887
00:57:08,550 --> 00:57:12,976
...the mad scientist reflects our mistrust
and fear of technology...
888
00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:16,354
...of advances that could undo us
as a people.
889
00:57:16,558 --> 00:57:19,778
New inventions come along
that could be...
890
00:57:19,978 --> 00:57:24,108
...the most wonderful boon for humanity...
891
00:57:24,316 --> 00:57:26,865
...or it could mean
the seeds of their destruction.
892
00:57:27,069 --> 00:57:32,701
So it figures that mad scientists
would be one of the true fears...
893
00:57:32,908 --> 00:57:35,957
...incorporated into the personified forms
of supervillains.
894
00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:42,544
Doctor Sivana was a cackling,
bald, bespectacled scientist...
895
00:57:42,751 --> 00:57:45,129
...who usually could be seen in a white coat.
896
00:57:45,337 --> 00:57:50,685
And he was responsible continually
for the near demise of Shazam.
897
00:57:50,884 --> 00:57:53,888
Before there was a Doctor Sivana,
for Lex Luthor...
898
00:57:54,096 --> 00:57:57,066
...there was the Ultra-Humanite...
899
00:57:57,265 --> 00:58:00,815
...who was sort of
like the very first mad scientist.
900
00:58:01,019 --> 00:58:05,775
He put his brain into other people's bodies,
or his consciousness in other people's bodies.
901
00:58:05,983 --> 00:58:09,112
So I believe, at one time,
he was a beautiful woman.
902
00:58:09,319 --> 00:58:13,165
He was different people
throughout his history.
903
00:58:13,365 --> 00:58:15,914
And now he's like a white ape-like creature.
904
00:58:16,118 --> 00:58:17,995
Charmed, I'm sure.
905
00:58:18,203 --> 00:58:21,332
But that just goes to show the power
of the mind over the matter.
906
00:58:21,540 --> 00:58:23,963
It doesn't matter what you look like
on the outside.
907
00:58:24,167 --> 00:58:28,047
As long as that brain survives,
that brain is going to be trouble for you.
908
00:58:28,255 --> 00:58:29,632
A militant general...
909
00:58:30,757 --> 00:58:33,260
...a despot, a conqueror.
910
00:58:33,468 --> 00:58:37,974
This is a villain not far removed
from our world's own tyrants.
911
00:58:38,181 --> 00:58:43,438
We know them as the dictator,
or more simply the overlord.
912
00:58:44,021 --> 00:58:47,446
I have a duty to my people.
913
00:58:47,649 --> 00:58:52,246
And I will not allow anyone
to prevent me from carrying it out.
914
00:58:52,446 --> 00:58:54,494
With Zod, it's a pure power thing.
915
00:58:54,740 --> 00:58:56,993
There's something very moving
about the fact...
916
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:58,998
...that this story begins with him...
917
00:58:59,202 --> 00:59:04,800
...basically seeing his entire planet explode...
918
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,220
...like his home evaporate into nothing.
919
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:13,847
I can't imagine a bigger launching-off point
for a character...
920
00:59:14,051 --> 00:59:19,854
...and then knowing that he'll do
whatever he can to make a new Krypton...
921
00:59:20,057 --> 00:59:22,151
...because he can't help himself.
922
00:59:22,350 --> 00:59:23,977
It's the only option he has.
923
00:59:24,186 --> 00:59:26,154
It's what he was born to do.
924
00:59:26,354 --> 00:59:29,028
That's what he's been training to do
his whole life.
925
00:59:29,232 --> 00:59:31,451
He's fighting for Krypton, for his people.
926
00:59:31,651 --> 00:59:33,619
And he's a warrior.
927
00:59:33,820 --> 00:59:36,073
And so he's capable of committing, like...
928
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:40,707
...horrific crimes against humanity
and/or anything living.
929
00:59:40,911 --> 00:59:44,791
Starro the Conqueror is an alien starfish.
930
00:59:44,998 --> 00:59:51,973
Giant starfish that comes down on Earth
and seizes control city by city.
931
00:59:52,172 --> 00:59:56,973
Then in terms of seizing their minds, it was
right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
932
00:59:57,552 --> 01:00:00,601
Culled from our own
Mob-laden underworld...
933
01:00:00,806 --> 01:00:05,858
...the criminal mastermind
is both power-hungry and immoral.
934
01:00:06,061 --> 01:00:08,985
Feeding their insatiable desire for control...
935
01:00:09,189 --> 01:00:14,616
...they keep the public in fear
as they tighten their grasp on their domain.
936
01:00:14,820 --> 01:00:18,199
Certainly one of the great types of villains
is the criminal mastermind...
937
01:00:18,406 --> 01:00:23,754
...the guy who holds an entire city or town
or village or whatever in a grip of fear.
938
01:00:23,954 --> 01:00:28,084
Penguin has what is informally
known as a Napoleon complex...
939
01:00:28,291 --> 01:00:30,589
...the small man who wants to be big.
940
01:00:30,794 --> 01:00:34,594
If he could lose that weight, he wouldn't,
because it helps him take up more space.
941
01:00:34,798 --> 01:00:35,924
His hat makes him taller.
942
01:00:36,133 --> 01:00:38,761
His umbrella, when extended,
helps him take up more area.
943
01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:41,513
From the very first story he appears in...
944
01:00:41,721 --> 01:00:44,725
...he wants to rise up in high society
and wants to be a crime boss.
945
01:00:44,933 --> 01:00:47,277
A number of stories feature him
running for mayor...
946
01:00:47,477 --> 01:00:50,572
...not because he wants to do something great.
He wants that status.
947
01:00:50,772 --> 01:00:51,898
He wants the power...
948
01:00:52,107 --> 01:00:55,657
...and he wants the status to be the big man
over everybody else in Gotham.
949
01:00:55,861 --> 01:01:00,833
The criminal mastermind
is sort of an extension of the real...
950
01:01:01,032 --> 01:01:06,209
...Mob crime organizations or crime families
that have been a part of American history...
951
01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:09,917
...almost since the country was founded.
That's a great character for comics...
952
01:01:11,376 --> 01:01:13,879
...because you can take that into the area
of caricature.
953
01:01:14,087 --> 01:01:15,839
Currently, guys like Black Mask.
954
01:01:16,047 --> 01:01:18,675
What's more hideous than a guy
in this, you know...
955
01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:20,852
...awful-looking skull mask...
956
01:01:21,052 --> 01:01:24,101
...wearing a business suit,
commanding a legion of street troopers?
957
01:01:24,306 --> 01:01:26,525
I mean, that's a great foe for Batman.
958
01:01:26,725 --> 01:01:30,980
To guys like Penguin, Black Mask,
they're out to really dominate the city.
959
01:01:31,188 --> 01:01:35,489
They wanna be the distorted, hideous,
grotesque face of Gotham City.
960
01:01:35,692 --> 01:01:39,242
Can we get some girls in here?
Careful what you wish for.
961
01:01:45,911 --> 01:01:47,128
Unh!
962
01:01:50,415 --> 01:01:51,667
Cat got your tongue?
963
01:01:51,875 --> 01:01:53,252
The apple on the tree.
964
01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:56,430
The seductive siren song of the temptress.
965
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:58,507
The femme fatale.
966
01:01:58,715 --> 01:02:04,347
The femme fatale crystallizes the qualities
of both a villain and a love interest...
967
01:02:04,554 --> 01:02:06,522
mall at the same time.
968
01:02:06,723 --> 01:02:08,851
You can find roots in movies.
969
01:02:09,059 --> 01:02:11,278
You can find the actresses...
970
01:02:11,478 --> 01:02:16,075
...who maybe inspired
some of the villainesses who were created.
971
01:02:16,274 --> 01:02:22,122
And these were women who used
their beauty to lure the hero in...
972
01:02:22,322 --> 01:02:25,121
...to get the hero to do their bidding.
973
01:02:25,325 --> 01:02:27,669
And that of course
was reflected in the comics.
974
01:02:27,869 --> 01:02:30,042
It was part of the inherent popular culture.
975
01:02:30,247 --> 01:02:33,968
Poison Ivy is a great example
of a female villain...
976
01:02:34,167 --> 01:02:37,512
...who will actually take advantage,
knowing that the male characters...
977
01:02:37,712 --> 01:02:39,965
...the male heroes,
and even the male villains...
978
01:02:40,173 --> 01:02:43,848
...that she's working with,
are the ones susceptible to love...
979
01:02:44,052 --> 01:02:46,225
...to connecting with her.
980
01:02:46,429 --> 01:02:51,401
And she uses those assumptions
for her own gain.
981
01:02:51,601 --> 01:02:54,354
She finds that her power is in, essentially...
982
01:02:55,021 --> 01:02:59,618
...taking advantage of other people's
vulnerability to emotions.
983
01:02:59,818 --> 01:03:05,291
She took everything that could be seen
as objectification towards women...
984
01:03:05,490 --> 01:03:08,664
...and then used it as her own power
and turns it around on the guys.
985
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:11,291
She's very interested in controlling people.
986
01:03:11,496 --> 01:03:15,171
Harley Quinn is a case of love gone bad.
987
01:03:15,375 --> 01:03:20,176
The individual who's fascinated
with the supervillains...
988
01:03:20,380 --> 01:03:24,385
"fascinated with their egos and their qualities,
and Joker plays to that.
989
01:03:24,592 --> 01:03:27,846
So Harleen Quinzel is a woman...
990
01:03:28,054 --> 01:03:32,480
...who is a psychiatry intern, essentially,
at Arkham Asylum.
991
01:03:32,684 --> 01:03:34,903
When Bruce Timm
and I wrote the origin for her...
992
01:03:35,103 --> 01:03:37,731
...in Mad Love, then we really got
into her personality.
993
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:43,446
That she wanted to write a tell-all book
about Gotham's psychotic criminals...
994
01:03:43,653 --> 01:03:46,748
...then wound up falling under the sway of one
and becoming one herself.
995
01:03:46,948 --> 01:03:50,168
She wants the toughest case possible.
996
01:03:50,368 --> 01:03:52,120
And who is the toughest case?
It's the Joker.
997
01:03:52,329 --> 01:03:54,457
There's this connection
that they have together.
998
01:03:54,664 --> 01:03:57,167
I think there is an element
of manipulation on his end.
999
01:03:57,375 --> 01:03:59,423
That he, um...
1000
01:03:59,627 --> 01:04:03,632
I think he fancies her,
but also that he's realizing that...
1001
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,845
...here's an opportunity for him
to get out of Arkham Asylum.
1002
01:04:08,053 --> 01:04:09,726
Harley's a bit of a social chameleon.
1003
01:04:09,929 --> 01:04:14,025
She molds herself to the people around her.
When she hangs out with heroes, she's heroic.
1004
01:04:14,225 --> 01:04:18,731
She hangs out with villains, she's villainous.
When with the Joker, she's more murderous...
1005
01:04:18,938 --> 01:04:20,611
...than she is at other times.
1006
01:04:20,815 --> 01:04:23,534
Some of the villainesses that we have
in the DC universe...
1007
01:04:23,735 --> 01:04:26,909
-...are almost more powerful than the villains.
- The sky is the limit...
1008
01:04:27,113 --> 01:04:28,535
...as far as female villains are concerned.
1009
01:04:28,740 --> 01:04:31,835
Someone like Cheetah, who is crazy ferocious.
1010
01:04:32,035 --> 01:04:35,460
With the Cheetah,
I wanted to create somebody...
1011
01:04:35,663 --> 01:04:38,041
...who resonated
with Wonder Woman, with Diana.
1012
01:04:38,249 --> 01:04:40,798
We added kind of a back-story
that they were friends...
1013
01:04:41,002 --> 01:04:43,425
...and then ultimately
she became the Cheetah.
1014
01:04:43,630 --> 01:04:46,554
And Wonder Woman later learned
she was never really her friend.
1015
01:04:46,758 --> 01:04:50,262
It was all just a play, and it was
a bond of trust that was broken.
1016
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:54,475
And the Cheetah has turned into this savage
creature that wants to destroy humanity...
1017
01:04:54,682 --> 01:04:57,777
...as much as Wonder Woman wants
to protect it.
1018
01:04:58,478 --> 01:04:59,604
At this point in time...
1019
01:04:59,813 --> 01:05:04,114
...I think we're lucky enough to be in an era
where there is a lot more equality.
1020
01:05:04,317 --> 01:05:06,411
And you're getting some great stories.
1021
01:05:06,611 --> 01:05:08,613
They can be defined by what their plot is...
1022
01:05:08,822 --> 01:05:13,749
...what their motive is, what their goals are,
what their methods are.
1023
01:05:13,952 --> 01:05:18,253
And that's great that you don't simply
have to define them by gender.
1024
01:05:18,456 --> 01:05:21,380
The female villain, you know, historically...
1025
01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:23,632
...goes back all the way to Greek mythology.
1026
01:05:23,837 --> 01:05:25,965
Look at a character like Hera, for instance...
1027
01:05:26,172 --> 01:05:30,427
...who is both a heroine and a villain,
depending on the story.
1028
01:05:30,635 --> 01:05:34,890
Other female villains throughout time
have a lot of that same complexity to them.
1029
01:05:35,098 --> 01:05:37,442
You look at a character like Catwoman,
for instance.
1030
01:05:37,642 --> 01:05:41,112
In her original incarnation,
I believe, she was just an adventurer.
1031
01:05:41,312 --> 01:05:44,691
She was out there being
a burglar and jewel robber...
1032
01:05:44,899 --> 01:05:47,243
...simply because of the thrill of it.
1033
01:05:47,444 --> 01:05:51,244
We began learning more about her in the 80s,
what her past might have been...
1034
01:05:51,448 --> 01:05:55,419
...and that certainly made her more of a
complex and more of a sympathetic character.
1035
01:05:55,618 --> 01:05:58,292
And then to the present day where she is...
1036
01:05:58,496 --> 01:06:01,124
...I believe one of the members
of the Justice League.
1037
01:06:01,332 --> 01:06:06,088
So she's gone all the way from being
a villain to anti-hero to straight-on heroine.
1038
01:06:06,296 --> 01:06:11,427
She's very curious to us.
She has that duality of both good and evil.
1039
01:06:11,634 --> 01:06:15,059
And I think that that allows
her to be relatable.
1040
01:06:15,263 --> 01:06:18,016
I think that she's the most realistic.
1041
01:06:18,224 --> 01:06:24,231
It was just interesting to see
this strong, female character.
1042
01:06:24,772 --> 01:06:26,399
And she was a precursor, I think...
1043
01:06:26,608 --> 01:06:30,238
...to a lot of the sort of heroines
that we now see on screen.
1044
01:06:30,445 --> 01:06:36,293
Women really started to become more popular
on the big screen and on TV.
1045
01:06:36,493 --> 01:06:39,793
As a result, I think of characters
like Catwoman being portrayed...
1046
01:06:39,996 --> 01:06:43,250
...in the early days of television and film.
1047
01:06:43,458 --> 01:06:49,761
Today, happily,
from what I have seen and read...
1048
01:06:49,964 --> 01:06:53,889
...you have superheroes, superheroines,
supervillains, supervillainesses...
1049
01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:55,595
...all on a level playing field.
1050
01:06:55,803 --> 01:07:00,229
I think any time you can make
the character strong...
1051
01:07:00,433 --> 01:07:04,233
...whether they're male or female,
you'll end up with a good villain.
1052
01:07:04,437 --> 01:07:08,317
it should come as
no surprise, no coincidence, really...
1053
01:07:08,525 --> 01:07:12,826
...that the more popular heroes are the ones
who typically battle the most sinister...
1054
01:07:13,029 --> 01:07:15,703
...and charismatic rogues' galleries.
1055
01:07:15,907 --> 01:07:18,751
For it's this dynamic roster of villains...
1056
01:07:18,952 --> 01:07:23,458
...that bolster and buoy
the popularity of our hero.
1057
01:07:23,665 --> 01:07:26,714
When you look at the very best characters,
the very best heroes...
1058
01:07:26,918 --> 01:07:30,673
...in comic book mythology, they typically
have the strongest rogues' gallery.
1059
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:36,182
I think you develop a better rogues' gallery
around the superhero...
1060
01:07:36,386 --> 01:07:39,435
...if the scale of the superhero...
1061
01:07:40,348 --> 01:07:45,821
...is one where it's easy to imagine
the villain coming into being.
1062
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:49,365
You look at Batman,
Batman ultimately is a human being.
1063
01:07:49,566 --> 01:07:54,697
So therefore you can have villains
that face him that are human plus a little.
1064
01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:57,999
Batman's rogues' gallery, which I think
is the best rogues' gallery...
1065
01:07:58,199 --> 01:08:00,998
...of all the DC heroes,
that resonates the most.
1066
01:08:01,202 --> 01:08:04,752
Those characters are considered,
you know, sort of the greater villains.
1067
01:08:05,498 --> 01:08:12,006
There's an interesting thing
about a lot of Batman's rogues...
1068
01:08:12,213 --> 01:08:16,593
...and here I'm specifically thinking
of, like, the Penguin and Two-Face...
1069
01:08:16,801 --> 01:08:18,553
...and Clayface and the Joker.
1070
01:08:18,761 --> 01:08:22,265
They're all physically deformed
in some way.
1071
01:08:22,473 --> 01:08:26,774
And that physical deformity
actually drives their evil.
1072
01:08:26,978 --> 01:08:30,357
Massively more difficult to have
villains of scale for Superman.
1073
01:08:30,565 --> 01:08:32,442
Character is incredibly powerful.
1074
01:08:32,650 --> 01:08:34,698
Who's tough enough to fight him?
1075
01:08:34,902 --> 01:08:41,751
Brainiac felt like a character who could actually
fight Superman and win without superpowers...
1076
01:08:41,951 --> 01:08:44,875
...because he's a computer.
He's a computer character.
1077
01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:50,176
So you must be Brainiac. Okay.
1078
01:08:50,376 --> 01:08:53,596
Brainiac was an alien
who was collecting cities...
1079
01:08:53,796 --> 01:08:56,891
...of different world cultures
as he moved throughout the galaxy...
1080
01:08:57,091 --> 01:08:59,014
...throughout the universe.
1081
01:08:59,218 --> 01:09:03,598
And he comes to Earth to shrink Metropolis,
among other cities...
1082
01:09:03,806 --> 01:09:05,433
...and put it in a glass bottle...
1083
01:09:05,642 --> 01:09:10,739
...and take it in his interplanetary collection
back to wherever he may have come from.
1084
01:09:10,938 --> 01:09:14,693
We didn't want it to always be Lex Luthor
that was fighting Superman, or Brainiac.
1085
01:09:14,901 --> 01:09:17,996
But then you start running
out of the famous names.
1086
01:09:18,196 --> 01:09:21,120
So we kept coming up with new guys,
you know.
1087
01:09:21,324 --> 01:09:27,457
The Parasite, he becomes
this individual who draws power from others.
1088
01:09:27,664 --> 01:09:31,168
He draws super power from Superman
or other superheroes he was around.
1089
01:09:31,376 --> 01:09:33,504
He draws life force from other people.
1090
01:09:33,711 --> 01:09:35,805
Sometimes even identity from other people.
1091
01:09:36,005 --> 01:09:38,178
I think Metallo's a really interesting villain.
1092
01:09:38,383 --> 01:09:42,229
And a large part of why I like him
is because he was human...
1093
01:09:42,428 --> 01:09:44,647
...but now he's got this Kryptonite heart.
1094
01:09:44,847 --> 01:09:48,147
So he still has a heart,
but it's a deformed heart.
1095
01:09:48,351 --> 01:09:52,652
It's an obscene heart. It's a heart of evil.
1096
01:09:52,855 --> 01:09:59,033
And that heart affects what he does,
and it has such a massive effect on Superman.
1097
01:09:59,237 --> 01:10:03,037
Characters like Superman and Wonder
Woman, the rogues' galleries get a lot smaller.
1098
01:10:03,241 --> 01:10:05,710
Wonder Woman in particular
has a very small gallery...
1099
01:10:05,910 --> 01:10:08,584
...because of who she is
and what she represents...
1100
01:10:08,788 --> 01:10:12,759
...and how she becomes more iconic
makes it harder to play off of her weaknesses...
1101
01:10:12,959 --> 01:10:15,929
...because a lot of people don't see
weaknesses in the character.
1102
01:10:16,129 --> 01:10:19,303
There's no major villainy
that could exploit those weaknesses in her.
1103
01:10:19,507 --> 01:10:23,307
We added another layer to Wonder Woman's
origin by making her the daughter of Zeus.
1104
01:10:23,511 --> 01:10:24,933
So she has divine blood.
1105
01:10:25,138 --> 01:10:28,563
And then we wanted to take it even further.
1106
01:10:28,766 --> 01:10:31,315
It's like, "Well, let's create somebody new,
a new god."
1107
01:10:31,519 --> 01:10:34,568
And it is-- We created this character
called the First Born.
1108
01:10:34,772 --> 01:10:38,618
He has no name.
He was the first child of Zeus and Hera.
1109
01:10:38,818 --> 01:10:41,992
And he was cast out of Olympus
because there was a prophecy...
1110
01:10:42,196 --> 01:10:43,823
...that he would take over Olympus.
1111
01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:49,379
So here is her original brother
who's been cast out of heaven and hated by all.
1112
01:10:49,579 --> 01:10:55,086
So now he's got a major hate-on
for his family and the world.
1113
01:11:00,339 --> 01:11:04,060
Just as heroes wit! bond
together to fight a common enemy...
1114
01:11:04,260 --> 01:11:06,683
...so too will the villains.
1115
01:11:06,888 --> 01:11:12,019
The fusion of good is matched
only by the unification of evil.
1116
01:11:12,226 --> 01:11:17,107
The Crime Syndicate, the Secret Society...
1117
01:11:17,315 --> 01:11:21,365
...the Rogues, the Legion of Doom.
1118
01:11:21,569 --> 01:11:23,492
Though their members differ...
1119
01:11:23,696 --> 01:11:28,418
...all villain team-ups employ
the same battle-tested strategy:
1120
01:11:28,618 --> 01:11:30,837
There is strength in numbers.
1121
01:11:31,037 --> 01:11:33,790
My favorite aspect of working
in this business...
1122
01:11:33,998 --> 01:11:37,628
...is when I have created various
incarnations of various teams.
1123
01:11:37,835 --> 01:11:41,840
We need one character who can fly.
We need one character who's really strong.
1124
01:11:42,048 --> 01:11:44,676
We need one character
who's maybe got some magical powers.
1125
01:11:44,884 --> 01:11:47,728
And just putting that together
is half the challenge.
1126
01:11:47,929 --> 01:11:50,728
The story writes itself more often than
not after that.
1127
01:11:50,932 --> 01:11:52,855
In The Challenge of the Super Friends...
1128
01:11:53,059 --> 01:11:56,063
...where you've got
the Justice League members marching...
1129
01:11:56,270 --> 01:12:00,150
...towards the screen and then the other side,
the Legion of Doom are marching.
1130
01:12:00,358 --> 01:12:04,534
They're coming at each other, and there's this
explosion when the two sides hit each other.
1131
01:12:04,737 --> 01:12:08,287
I mean, you know, as a 6-, 7-year-old kid,
you know, it blew your mind.
1132
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:12,291
Normally, villains are seen as individuals
and they have their own personal plot...
1133
01:12:12,495 --> 01:12:14,873
...to take over the world
or something like that.
1134
01:12:15,081 --> 01:12:20,008
But the idea of them combining together,
you know, makes their threat that much bigger.
1135
01:12:20,211 --> 01:12:24,307
Supervillain team-ups, ha, ha,
are their own unique animal...
1136
01:12:24,507 --> 01:12:26,555
...because on the one hand...
1137
01:12:26,759 --> 01:12:31,014
...there's a huge potential
and disappointment ratio...
1138
01:12:31,222 --> 01:12:33,190
...when supervillains team up.
1139
01:12:33,391 --> 01:12:35,644
The potential is, well...
1140
01:12:35,852 --> 01:12:38,196
...it's two great tastes
that taste great together.
1141
01:12:38,396 --> 01:12:40,740
It's two threats are better than one.
1142
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:44,069
You know, when Lex Luthor
and Brainiac team up...
1143
01:12:44,277 --> 01:12:46,746
...you know, when the Joker
and the Riddler team up...
1144
01:12:46,946 --> 01:12:50,496
...that's incredibly, you know,
resonant and powerful.
1145
01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:54,421
The problem is that
99.9 percent of the time...
1146
01:12:54,620 --> 01:12:58,500
...the ability of the superhero
to overcome their plan...
1147
01:12:58,708 --> 01:13:03,214
...is usually hidden in the conflict
between the supervillains.
1148
01:13:03,421 --> 01:13:07,551
The supervillains, they can't get
their act together. A comic book is 22 pages.
1149
01:13:07,758 --> 01:13:11,353
They can get their act together for 19 pages,
but those last three are just, ugh...
1150
01:13:11,554 --> 01:13:12,897
...they're just falling apart.
1151
01:13:13,097 --> 01:13:17,352
I'd like to complete this transaction
with as little bloodshed as possible, Lex.
1152
01:13:17,852 --> 01:13:21,197
Now put your hands up
and have Toy Man turn us around.
1153
01:13:22,398 --> 01:13:23,775
Don't look at him, Big Boy.
1154
01:13:24,609 --> 01:13:25,861
Grodd is leader.
1155
01:13:29,447 --> 01:13:33,623
The Rogues are different. The Rogues
can come together for a common goal.
1156
01:13:33,826 --> 01:13:37,876
They're guys that seem silly at first,
but you look at somebody like Mirror Master.
1157
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:42,802
Okay, the guy can teleport through
any reflective surface, not just a mirror.
1158
01:13:43,002 --> 01:13:46,632
He can bend light, illusions.
1159
01:13:46,839 --> 01:13:49,592
He can make himself appear
in multiple places at once.
1160
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,350
I mean, there's so many very interesting things
that he can do on his own...
1161
01:13:53,554 --> 01:13:57,354
...that when you put him into a group
with other villains that are versatile...
1162
01:13:57,558 --> 01:14:02,985
...you have a really cool set
of personalities and powers.
1163
01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:06,193
Although, they do have,
you know, specific rivalries.
1164
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,074
Heat Wave and Captain Cold
don't like each other.
1165
01:14:09,278 --> 01:14:12,031
Yeah, one's hot and one's cold,
but there are reasons.
1166
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:16,961
In our "Flash Run,"
all the Rogues...
1167
01:14:17,161 --> 01:14:20,665
...they used to have guns and wands
and mechanical devices dating back...
1168
01:14:20,873 --> 01:14:24,753
...to when they were originally created.
But we made them have superpowers...
1169
01:14:24,961 --> 01:14:26,679
...and it's because of Captain Cold.
1170
01:14:26,879 --> 01:14:29,974
He made them undergo this transformation
that gave them superpowers.
1171
01:14:30,174 --> 01:14:32,097
Well, it had negative side effects.
1172
01:14:32,301 --> 01:14:36,181
For poor Heat Wave, it burnt off
basically all the top layer of his skin...
1173
01:14:36,389 --> 01:14:41,020
...so he looks really gross and messed up, so
he hates Captain Cold for making him that way.
1174
01:14:41,227 --> 01:14:42,479
Why do they hang out together?
1175
01:14:42,687 --> 01:14:45,190
There's strength
in numbers, and Flash is fast enough...
1176
01:14:45,398 --> 01:14:47,617
...he can fight more than one person
at a time.
1177
01:14:47,817 --> 01:14:49,535
There's something about the Rogues.
1178
01:14:49,735 --> 01:14:52,363
They wanna pull their jobs,
live their lives and be alone.
1179
01:14:52,571 --> 01:14:55,199
Like, it's their job to pull off heists
and steal stuff.
1180
01:14:55,408 --> 01:14:58,912
That's how they make their living.
They consider themselves blue-collar guys.
1181
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:03,421
"Gonna pop a beer and we're gonna spend
the money we made by robbing the bank."
1182
01:15:03,624 --> 01:15:07,674
What other villains can you think about?
They pull a heist, they escape the Flash...
1183
01:15:07,878 --> 01:15:12,679
-...and then they go to a bar to have a beer?
- The Suicide Squad is the exception to the rule.
1184
01:15:12,883 --> 01:15:16,478
And what makes it interesting is
it's a bunch of villains...
1185
01:15:16,679 --> 01:15:20,900
...who are forced by the government to go on
missions that are for the good of the people.
1186
01:15:21,100 --> 01:15:27,403
And if they fail, if they decide to try and escape,
they have devices that will kill them.
1187
01:15:27,606 --> 01:15:28,949
So they are forced to do it.
1188
01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:32,950
I think the fact that they are forced
to be heroes despite their own instincts...
1189
01:15:33,154 --> 01:15:36,784
...and that they're constantly trying to
work out ways to undermine missions...
1190
01:15:36,991 --> 01:15:40,621
...and to sometimes betray their teammates
and be villains even while they're--
1191
01:15:40,828 --> 01:15:44,628
When they're forced to do the right thing
is the reason why that team, that book...
1192
01:15:44,832 --> 01:15:51,260
-...is always around and is always popular.
- None of their motivation is theirs.
1193
01:15:51,464 --> 01:15:56,766
They're doing the bidding
of Amanda Waller and the government.
1194
01:15:56,969 --> 01:15:59,518
Are the people
that are planting these bombs...
1195
01:15:59,722 --> 01:16:01,975
...on the backs of
the Suicide Squad members...
1196
01:16:02,183 --> 01:16:03,275
...are they the heroes?
1197
01:16:03,476 --> 01:16:05,444
You know, purportedly they are.
1198
01:16:05,644 --> 01:16:09,114
But the way they're doing it,
it really, you know comes down to...
1199
01:16:09,315 --> 01:16:11,738
...it's an extreme form of water boarding,
I think.
1200
01:16:11,942 --> 01:16:18,575
They have reason to hate their handlers,
who are supposed to be the good guys...
1201
01:16:18,783 --> 01:16:20,956
...but they're not seen that way in the books.
1202
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:26,917
So it's an interesting study
in what makes a villain and what makes a hero...
1203
01:16:27,124 --> 01:16:29,297
...because it's kind of flip-flopped
in that book.
1204
01:16:29,502 --> 01:16:34,053
They're not there to personally screw
the other guy standing next to them.
1205
01:16:34,256 --> 01:16:36,133
They are there to just survive.
1206
01:16:36,342 --> 01:16:40,813
And they are-- They don't want it
to be their suicide mission.
1207
01:16:41,013 --> 01:16:44,938
And I do think that that's of a different
and new angle.
1208
01:16:45,142 --> 01:16:47,861
Suicide Squad is successful,
because it has a rotating cast.
1209
01:16:48,062 --> 01:16:50,986
You could kill some members off.
There's always that question...
1210
01:16:51,190 --> 01:16:54,444
...of something happening to the cast
that could change the status quo.
1211
01:16:54,652 --> 01:16:57,576
There's always that anticipation
that if a mission goes wrong...
1212
01:16:57,780 --> 01:16:59,748
...somebody could actually die.
1213
01:16:59,949 --> 01:17:02,702
It's a gut-level survival instinct.
1214
01:17:02,910 --> 01:17:05,129
For the reader, you're just like:
1215
01:17:05,329 --> 01:17:08,754
"Who's gonna make it
through this mission and how?"
1216
01:17:08,958 --> 01:17:13,179
You know, and then, you know,
“Are they gonna manage to actually get free...
1217
01:17:13,379 --> 01:17:16,804
...so they can take care of Amanda Waller?"
Heh, heh, heh.
1218
01:17:17,007 --> 01:17:20,807
Sometimes it's more exciting
to find a villain that's so powerful...
1219
01:17:21,011 --> 01:17:24,015
...the combined might of an entire team
can't defeat them.
1220
01:17:24,849 --> 01:17:27,819
So the superheroes and the supervillains
have to band together...
1221
01:17:28,018 --> 01:17:29,520
...put aside their differences.
1222
01:17:29,728 --> 01:17:33,403
You always have that classic shot
where they reach out and shake hands...
1223
01:17:33,607 --> 01:17:34,984
...and, like, "Let's team up."
1224
01:17:35,192 --> 01:17:37,445
And, to me,
that's like the ultimate odd couple.
1225
01:17:37,653 --> 01:17:41,453
The problem is though that there aren't
that many of those kinds of villains.
1226
01:17:41,657 --> 01:17:46,663
So it's always a challenge to find one villain
powerful enough to take out all of them.
1227
01:17:46,871 --> 01:17:49,590
It's interesting that someone
like Lex Luthor could do it...
1228
01:17:49,790 --> 01:17:52,088
...just because he has the skill
to out-think them.
1229
01:17:52,293 --> 01:17:56,719
So it isn't always power.
Sometimes it's that X-factor.
1230
01:17:56,922 --> 01:18:00,176
But if you can manage
to do the right storyline...
1231
01:18:00,384 --> 01:18:04,105
...again, it can be a lot of fun
and a really great challenge.
1232
01:18:04,305 --> 01:18:07,149
I'm not here to challenge you, Darkseid.
Quite the contrary.
1233
01:18:07,349 --> 01:18:12,276
I've got something you want.
The only thing you want.
1234
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:14,277
People can identify with that...
1235
01:18:14,481 --> 01:18:20,159
...because when we're faced
with something that endangers...
1236
01:18:20,362 --> 01:18:21,659
...our way of life...
1237
01:18:21,864 --> 01:18:24,037
...we can set aside our differences
and work together.
1238
01:18:29,788 --> 01:18:33,418
A fine line exists between a hero and villain.
1239
01:18:33,626 --> 01:18:36,049
And sometimes the line is crossed.
1240
01:18:36,253 --> 01:18:38,927
In essence, the hero becomes the villain.
1241
01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:43,477
But when a hero loses their way,
is salvation possible?
1242
01:18:43,677 --> 01:18:47,978
One of the great classic stories of literature...
1243
01:18:48,182 --> 01:18:51,402
...is the drama of the good man goes bad.
1244
01:18:51,602 --> 01:18:55,197
What is it that can happen to us
that puts us through...
1245
01:18:55,397 --> 01:19:01,746
...a set of circumstances that drives us
to do something we don't morally believe in?
1246
01:19:01,946 --> 01:19:03,289
That's a powerful tale.
1247
01:19:03,489 --> 01:19:08,837
Trying to turn a hero, you have to actually
figure out how to affect their moral center.
1248
01:19:09,036 --> 01:19:12,506
It's in the face of a planet being blown up,
a city being blown up...
1249
01:19:12,706 --> 01:19:15,425
...or a wife or a lover dying.
1250
01:19:16,794 --> 01:19:23,678
And the idea that "I wasn't strong enough,
I wasn't powerful enough and perhaps...
1251
01:19:23,884 --> 01:19:26,603
...me doing the right thing or being a hero
was the problem.
1252
01:19:26,804 --> 01:19:30,434
If I'd been more vicious, if I'd been more brutal,
I could have changed things."
1253
01:19:30,641 --> 01:19:37,490
I think every great turn of a hero
to a villain, it comes from that.
1254
01:19:37,690 --> 01:19:43,072
LEE: In Injustice, the storyline
is that the Joker has killed Lois...
1255
01:19:43,279 --> 01:19:48,285
...and it's not just Lois' death that drives
Superman to almost a level of insanity...
1256
01:19:48,492 --> 01:19:50,836
...but the fact that Lois
was carrying his child...
1257
01:19:51,036 --> 01:19:54,131
...and so it has double significance
and impact on him.
1258
01:19:54,873 --> 01:19:55,920
That's enough.
1259
01:19:59,670 --> 01:20:02,298
At that point,
he kind of loses his frame of reference...
1260
01:20:02,506 --> 01:20:05,009
...and decides to create
almost a totalitarian state...
1261
01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:08,391
...where he's the ultimate authority.
So again in his mind...
1262
01:20:08,595 --> 01:20:12,850
...he is trying to prevent what happened
to Lois and his unborn child...
1263
01:20:13,058 --> 01:20:15,152
...from happening in the world
by becoming...
1264
01:20:15,352 --> 01:20:17,571
...you know, the enlightened dictator.
1265
01:20:17,771 --> 01:20:20,991
But, you know,
you see sort of the holes in logic of that.
1266
01:20:21,191 --> 01:20:24,991
You know, ultimately,
you are creating a greater evil...
1267
01:20:25,195 --> 01:20:28,574
...by trying to do
some small sense of good.
1268
01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:32,127
There have been a few stories where
heroes go villainous for some time...
1269
01:20:32,328 --> 01:20:36,378
...and I think probably the most famous one
is Hal Jordan when Coast City...
1270
01:20:36,582 --> 01:20:38,505
...the city he called home, was attacked.
1271
01:20:38,709 --> 01:20:42,304
And many people were killed and destroyed
and he wanted to bring them back.
1272
01:20:42,504 --> 01:20:45,849
And he went to the Guardians
and said, "Give me this power so I can do it."
1273
01:20:46,050 --> 01:20:48,394
And they said no,
and he ultimately killed them...
1274
01:20:48,594 --> 01:20:50,141
...and became--
1275
01:20:50,346 --> 01:20:52,815
Went crazy, became this big villain
in the DC universe.
1276
01:20:53,015 --> 01:20:56,986
You know, they say that power corrupts
and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
1277
01:20:57,186 --> 01:21:00,486
Usually when a hero falls from grace
it's because they've succumbed...
1278
01:21:00,689 --> 01:21:04,319
...to their own power,
like when Hal Jordan became Parallax.
1279
01:21:04,526 --> 01:21:07,450
It was Hal Jordan overreaching...
1280
01:21:07,654 --> 01:21:12,660
...and trying to use his power as
the Green Lantern to recreate an entire city...
1281
01:21:12,868 --> 01:21:15,166
...and he kept wanting
more and more power.
1282
01:21:15,371 --> 01:21:18,045
And he basically got corrupted
by his own...
1283
01:21:18,248 --> 01:21:20,342
You know, by his own super power.
1284
01:21:20,542 --> 01:21:25,139
And I think that is usually the path down--
You know, down darkness.
1285
01:21:25,339 --> 01:21:27,307
Through becoming the Spectre...
1286
01:21:27,508 --> 01:21:30,853
...and ultimately becoming Green Lantern again
he found redemption.
1287
01:21:31,053 --> 01:21:35,684
But it took years and it was a great
hero's journey that we got to witness.
1288
01:21:35,891 --> 01:21:39,646
JOHNS: Hal Jordan was always about
overcoming fear and I thought, "Well...
1289
01:21:39,853 --> 01:21:43,903
...if he's all about overcoming fear,
there's gotta be a moment that he gave in to fear.
1290
01:21:44,108 --> 01:21:47,112
When was that weakness?"
That weak point was when he was worried...
1291
01:21:47,319 --> 01:21:50,289
...something else was gonna happen
once Coast City was destroyed.
1292
01:21:50,489 --> 01:21:53,743
And in that moment,
he let fear kind of take hold of his heart.
1293
01:21:53,951 --> 01:21:56,625
That's when Sinestro unleashed Parallax,
who was this--
1294
01:21:56,829 --> 01:22:01,460
We created this entity of terror that could
possess his soul and corrupt his body.
1295
01:22:01,667 --> 01:22:04,295
And essentially turn him into Parallax.
1296
01:22:04,503 --> 01:22:09,134
And by having Hal still make a mistake
and give in to fear...
1297
01:22:09,341 --> 01:22:12,390
...it was still on point
and gave him a point of failure.
1298
01:22:12,594 --> 01:22:13,811
But at the same time...
1299
01:22:14,012 --> 01:22:17,733
...adding Parallax allowed
for an easier redemption.
1300
01:22:17,933 --> 01:22:20,027
And so if a hero does cross the line...
1301
01:22:20,227 --> 01:22:23,697
...does he just go back to work the next day?
The idea was no.
1302
01:22:23,897 --> 01:22:27,367
It was a 10-year problem for him.
1303
01:22:27,568 --> 01:22:32,825
Comic books, by, I think, their basic nature
is about wish fulfillment.
1304
01:22:33,031 --> 01:22:37,127
Therefore, the concept of second chances...
1305
01:22:38,287 --> 01:22:43,418
...is actually built into the very concept
of the type of material we do.
1306
01:22:43,625 --> 01:22:48,131
So the idea that a hero
or a villain could be redeemed...
1307
01:22:48,338 --> 01:22:52,059
...is exactly what comics have to be about.
1308
01:22:52,259 --> 01:22:55,729
We can take bad and turn it good.
1309
01:22:55,929 --> 01:22:58,307
And we can make good even better.
1310
01:22:58,515 --> 01:23:03,396
And that's what comics
and fantasy storytelling is all about.
1311
01:23:03,604 --> 01:23:08,030
Cry for Justice began with a bunch
of heroes trying to track down Prometheus.
1312
01:23:08,233 --> 01:23:12,079
Prometheus has actually taken
the identity of one of the heroes.
1313
01:23:12,279 --> 01:23:16,204
So he actually is amongst them
the entire time.
1314
01:23:16,408 --> 01:23:17,660
At the end of it...
1315
01:23:17,868 --> 01:23:20,963
...Prometheus has worked out a way
to destroy most of Star City...
1316
01:23:21,163 --> 01:23:25,293
...which is Green Arrow's home.
1317
01:23:25,501 --> 01:23:28,220
He also maims Arsenal...
1318
01:23:28,420 --> 01:23:32,800
...and then ultimately Arsenal's
daughter is killed.
1319
01:23:33,383 --> 01:23:36,102
What happens at the very end
is the one moderate person...
1320
01:23:36,303 --> 01:23:41,230
...Green Arrow, then tracks down Prometheus
on his own and executes him.
1321
01:23:41,433 --> 01:23:46,690
And that then led to a long arc for Green Arrow
where he had to redeem himself.
1322
01:23:46,897 --> 01:23:49,696
Green Arrow crossed the line
and took the life of a villain.
1323
01:23:49,900 --> 01:23:52,870
He did not just come back
from that adventure...
1324
01:23:53,070 --> 01:23:56,370
...and say, "Oh, well,
I'm never gonna kill people again."
1325
01:23:56,573 --> 01:23:59,372
He had a mental breakdown,
and we did a year...
1326
01:23:59,576 --> 01:24:03,046
...a year and a half long story
where he lost it.
1327
01:24:03,247 --> 01:24:08,754
And it was to show that there's
consequences for this kind of stuff.
1328
01:24:08,961 --> 01:24:15,185
I do think that in modern comics,
it's okay for the heroes to fail.
1329
01:24:15,384 --> 01:24:18,228
You just got to have it mean something.
1330
01:24:18,428 --> 01:24:20,931
And not just teach them something...
1331
01:24:21,139 --> 01:24:26,521
...but have them suffer
because they did something wrong.
1332
01:24:26,728 --> 01:24:30,983
Taking someone's life, you take away
all they're gonna have and ever will be.
1333
01:24:31,191 --> 01:24:34,821
And it stays with you even if you
do it for the right and proper thing.
1334
01:24:35,028 --> 01:24:38,874
So, you know, killing in comics is--
When the hero pulls the trigger...
1335
01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:42,578
...I think it's not done a lot,
but I think when it's done...
1336
01:24:42,786 --> 01:24:45,539
...it has to be done in a real big way...
1337
01:24:45,747 --> 01:24:48,842
...that has an emotional punch
to the hero's psyche and soul.
1338
01:24:49,042 --> 01:24:52,012
After we've witnessed such heinous crimes...
1339
01:24:52,212 --> 01:24:54,965
...after we've experienced firsthand...
1340
01:24:55,173 --> 01:25:00,646
...pure evil in the face of villainy,
can the evildoer be redeemed?
1341
01:25:00,846 --> 01:25:05,272
In this comic book world
where heroes often get second chances...
1342
01:25:05,475 --> 01:25:08,149
...can the villain ever be forgiven?
1343
01:25:08,353 --> 01:25:12,950
It's a lot harder to figure out
how somebody who spent years...
1344
01:25:13,150 --> 01:25:16,245
...taking what they wanted, killing people...
1345
01:25:16,445 --> 01:25:21,246
...whatever set of misdeeds
will suddenly turn around...
1346
01:25:21,450 --> 01:25:26,798
...and find God and become moral
the rest of their lives.
1347
01:25:26,997 --> 01:25:28,044
Does it happen?
1348
01:25:28,248 --> 01:25:32,469
Probably does in reality,
but it's a real tough story to tell.
1349
01:25:32,669 --> 01:25:37,846
Black Adam is an interesting character.
He was chosen by the wizard Shazam...
1350
01:25:38,050 --> 01:25:42,021
...given powers back in
the ancient Egyptian days.
1351
01:25:42,220 --> 01:25:45,099
He was a slave in Kahndaq.
1352
01:25:45,307 --> 01:25:48,652
He took these powers, became Black Adam,
the champion, and he was a hero.
1353
01:25:48,852 --> 01:25:50,946
And over time,
he was corrupted by that power.
1354
01:25:51,146 --> 01:25:54,946
He went back to Kahndaq and he said,
“I'm leading Kahndaq now, you are free.
1355
01:25:55,150 --> 01:25:59,405
I'm here." And then he found someone
he fell in love with. Isis was born...
1356
01:25:59,613 --> 01:26:04,244
...and then Isis' brother Osiris. Like,
we kind of created a Black Adam family.
1357
01:26:05,243 --> 01:26:09,293
And then that family was torn apart
and they were killed.
1358
01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:14,345
And Isis, who had been such a great presence
for Adam, who had preached peace.
1359
01:26:14,544 --> 01:26:20,176
As she's dying in his arms,
the last words she says is, "Avenge us."
1360
01:26:20,384 --> 01:26:22,682
And that sends Black Adam off.
1361
01:26:22,886 --> 01:26:26,140
And he kills an entire country out of rage.
1362
01:26:26,348 --> 01:26:29,477
And, obviously,
hard to redeem somebody after that.
1363
01:26:29,685 --> 01:26:32,780
He believes in doing the right thing.
1364
01:26:32,979 --> 01:26:36,904
He just goes about it in such a barbaric
and awful way.
1365
01:26:37,109 --> 01:26:42,457
Pete Tomasi wrote a fantastic story wrapped
around a character everybody should hate.
1366
01:26:42,656 --> 01:26:47,708
And made him--
You know, made him a hero...
1367
01:26:47,911 --> 01:26:50,460
...in a very--
You know, from a very villainous past.
1368
01:26:50,664 --> 01:26:53,417
It's a weird spot to be in when
you're a writer, when you have to say:
1369
01:26:53,625 --> 01:26:57,300
"I committed genocide,
but I have to make this character relatable...
1370
01:26:57,504 --> 01:27:01,384
...and in a weird way have people understand
where he was coming from at that point."
1371
01:27:01,591 --> 01:27:04,891
So it's a tough line to walk
when you're a writer writing a character...
1372
01:27:05,095 --> 01:27:07,723
...who's as three-dimensional
as Black Adam...
1373
01:27:07,931 --> 01:27:11,310
...because he really is one of those
great three-dimensional characters...
1374
01:27:11,518 --> 01:27:15,193
...that you could horribly understand
why he does something.
1375
01:27:15,397 --> 01:27:18,901
With villains, though,
when you try and turn them into heroes...
1376
01:27:19,109 --> 01:27:23,205
...they can lose their...
What makes them special.
1377
01:27:23,405 --> 01:27:27,205
So it's a very rare case
where a villain is better as a hero.
1378
01:27:27,409 --> 01:27:31,585
Most of the time most readers just can't wait
for them to be villainous again.
1379
01:27:31,788 --> 01:27:33,836
ROMANO:
When we worked on Dark Knight Returns...
1380
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:36,463
...where we have Doctor Wolper...
1381
01:27:36,668 --> 01:27:39,888
...trying to bring the Joker back
and trying to work with him...
1382
01:27:40,088 --> 01:27:42,466
...and now Doctor Wolper also
has an enormous ego.
1383
01:27:42,674 --> 01:27:45,769
And so you've got Joker's ego,
Wolper's ego.
1384
01:27:45,969 --> 01:27:48,893
It doesn't work out well.
It doesn't work out well for Wolper.
1385
01:27:50,807 --> 01:27:53,526
But the Joker absolutely
was all about:
1386
01:27:53,727 --> 01:27:58,198
"I am rehabilitated. I'm here.
I've seen the error of my ways."
1387
01:27:58,398 --> 01:28:02,244
And he really just used that as a matter
to get himself out of Arkham...
1388
01:28:02,444 --> 01:28:04,446
...so he could commit tremendous crimes.
1389
01:28:04,654 --> 01:28:08,704
I think some of them can be redeemed,
but I think what you gotta do...
1390
01:28:08,909 --> 01:28:12,413
...is you gotta dangle the sense of redemption
in front of them then rip it away.
1391
01:28:12,621 --> 01:28:15,124
Ultimately, you show
why they were a villain in the first place.
1392
01:28:21,338 --> 01:28:27,892
As society continues
to evolve, so too do our villains.
1393
01:28:28,512 --> 01:28:30,856
In September of 2011...
1394
01:28:31,056 --> 01:28:34,151
...DC relaunched its entire line of comics...
1395
01:28:34,351 --> 01:28:36,820
...dubbed The New 52.
1396
01:28:37,020 --> 01:28:39,569
Two years ago,
relaunched the DC universe.
1397
01:28:39,773 --> 01:28:43,698
We called that The New 52 and it was
basically a soft reset of the universe...
1398
01:28:43,902 --> 01:28:47,156
...where we basically fixed the things
that we felt weren't working...
1399
01:28:47,364 --> 01:28:49,537
...and kept going with the things
that were.
1400
01:28:49,741 --> 01:28:53,621
We sat down and thought about: "What do we
need more of in the DC universe?"
1401
01:28:53,829 --> 01:28:57,333
And one of the things that we wanted
to address was the villains.
1402
01:28:57,541 --> 01:29:02,138
What is villainy to us in 2013?
What is real evil in 2013?
1403
01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:06,342
It's horrendous, right? And sometimes
if you get too close to the reality of it...
1404
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:08,348
...it takes you out of the comic book.
1405
01:29:08,552 --> 01:29:11,305
So using super villains as metaphors
for whatever that is...
1406
01:29:11,513 --> 01:29:15,939
...and for the brutal attacks that they do,
it's gotten darker. It's darker. And it's scarier.
1407
01:29:16,142 --> 01:29:19,191
And the attacks come without notice
sometimes and they're personal.
1408
01:29:19,396 --> 01:29:22,650
I think that's because
we live in a very, sort of, fearful time.
1409
01:29:22,858 --> 01:29:25,202
Ever since 9/11, the world's been on edge...
1410
01:29:25,402 --> 01:29:28,406
...and no one knows
when the next shoe is gonna drop.
1411
01:29:28,613 --> 01:29:32,993
Is it gonna be a tsunami?
Is it gonna be economic collapse?
1412
01:29:33,201 --> 01:29:36,205
Villains that sort of embody
that sense of unpredictability...
1413
01:29:36,413 --> 01:29:40,714
...that sense of, you know, doom can come
in any form and at any time.
1414
01:29:40,917 --> 01:29:43,511
I think that speaks
to everyone's sort of hidden fears.
1415
01:29:43,712 --> 01:29:48,513
Instead of characters of good and evil,
it became about characters of order and chaos.
1416
01:29:48,717 --> 01:29:50,719
It became about anarchy.
1417
01:29:50,927 --> 01:29:54,477
We are artists and we're trying to reflect
what's going on in the world.
1418
01:29:54,681 --> 01:29:57,560
That's what all art does. It's a mirror.
1419
01:29:57,976 --> 01:30:02,072
While DC's rogues' gallery
of villains is already enormous...
1420
01:30:02,272 --> 01:30:06,027
...there's always room for a little more evil.
1421
01:30:06,234 --> 01:30:10,284
With the advent of The New 52,
the heroes of the DC universe...
1422
01:30:10,488 --> 01:30:13,116
...must face new threats and adversaries.
1423
01:30:13,325 --> 01:30:18,206
I have a strange belief
about the way one proceeds with comics...
1424
01:30:18,413 --> 01:30:21,883
...is to using old characters
and introducing new characters.
1425
01:30:22,083 --> 01:30:25,633
My belief is if you're gonna use
one or two old characters...
1426
01:30:25,837 --> 01:30:27,885
...you have to introduce a new one.
1427
01:30:28,089 --> 01:30:33,971
I don't think we should ever be so content
to keep riding on the same horse.
1428
01:30:34,179 --> 01:30:38,150
If the hero has to survive
for 16, 20, 30 years...
1429
01:30:38,350 --> 01:30:41,399
...you wanna know all
the different aspects of that character...
1430
01:30:41,603 --> 01:30:45,483
...and the villain will make them face
certain parts about themselves...
1431
01:30:45,690 --> 01:30:48,113
...that on their own...
1432
01:30:48,318 --> 01:30:51,993
...they may not even think about
or can come up in a storyline.
1433
01:30:52,197 --> 01:30:55,827
A villain will find that, because they're
always trying to find something new...
1434
01:30:56,034 --> 01:30:58,332
...to use against the hero...
1435
01:30:58,536 --> 01:31:00,959
...which makes you explore
your hero even more.
1436
01:31:01,164 --> 01:31:06,136
The goal of any villain
is to challenge our hero, right?
1437
01:31:06,336 --> 01:31:09,180
Not to challenge them
but to take them to the ragged edge...
1438
01:31:09,381 --> 01:31:11,429
...of his existence in every way.
1439
01:31:11,633 --> 01:31:15,012
The idea is to try and think about
what the character is most afraid of...
1440
01:31:15,220 --> 01:31:17,848
...at that particular moment
in his or her life, the hero...
1441
01:31:18,056 --> 01:31:20,434
...then create a villain
that comes right at that thing.
1442
01:31:20,642 --> 01:31:23,316
So for "Court of Owls,"
that story was really about...
1443
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:26,239
...you know, a moment when Batman
was on top of the world.
1444
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,067
He felt very confident in Gotham
and it made me realize...
1445
01:31:29,275 --> 01:31:33,030
...Batman might think he knows the city
but he can't know the history of the city.
1446
01:31:33,238 --> 01:31:37,584
He can't know everything about it. So what
if the city itself begins to come at him saying:
1447
01:31:37,784 --> 01:31:40,412
"You don't know me that well."
With the Court of Owls...
1448
01:31:40,620 --> 01:31:45,342
...they're this group buried and layered into
the past of the city in ways that are scary to him.
1449
01:31:45,542 --> 01:31:47,215
He doesn't believe they exist at all.
1450
01:31:47,419 --> 01:31:50,263
Then he sees that they actually
have nests for their Talons...
1451
01:31:50,463 --> 01:31:53,558
...inside Wayne buildings
and then in the penultimate scene...
1452
01:31:53,758 --> 01:31:56,056
...he realizes that
the person behind the story...
1453
01:31:56,261 --> 01:31:58,810
...is actually someone who claims to be
a Wayne himself.
1454
01:31:59,014 --> 01:32:02,484
The Guardians of the Universe
were characters that they're ancient beings...
1455
01:32:02,684 --> 01:32:05,654
...that divorced themselves
from emotion a long time ago.
1456
01:32:05,854 --> 01:32:07,481
They thought emotion was dangerous.
1457
01:32:07,689 --> 01:32:10,067
They say the law is supposed
to be devoid of emotion.
1458
01:32:10,275 --> 01:32:13,745
The First Lantern is the being
who got the first ring...
1459
01:32:13,945 --> 01:32:18,371
...who was there to witness the divorcing
of the Guardians and their emotional hearts.
1460
01:32:18,575 --> 01:32:21,454
And he took that emotional power
for himself.
1461
01:32:21,661 --> 01:32:23,208
And he had changed who he was...
1462
01:32:23,413 --> 01:32:26,542
...and the Guardians locked him away
like they did their emotions.
1463
01:32:26,750 --> 01:32:31,756
The First Lantern is a metaphor for all the
pent up emotion the Guardians have buried.
1464
01:32:31,963 --> 01:32:34,512
And that First Lantern is now free.
1465
01:32:34,716 --> 01:32:37,845
At one point, the First Lantern says--
As he's got them captured...
1466
01:32:38,053 --> 01:32:41,557
...he's turned the tables and he says,
“I'm gonna change this universe now.
1467
01:32:41,765 --> 01:32:44,769
But before I do,
I want you to have your emotions back.
1468
01:32:44,976 --> 01:32:46,478
I want you to feel this."
1469
01:32:46,686 --> 01:32:49,360
The Guardians,
for the first time in billions of years...
1470
01:32:49,564 --> 01:32:52,283
...have their emotions back
and they feel shame and fear...
1471
01:32:52,484 --> 01:32:55,988
...and horror about what they've done
and what they've become...
1472
01:32:56,196 --> 01:32:57,664
...which I really enjoyed.
1473
01:32:57,864 --> 01:33:00,413
And then that's right before
Sinestro wipes them out.
1474
01:33:01,993 --> 01:33:05,623
When I got into Aquaman and I was
launching Aquaman for The New 52...
1475
01:33:05,830 --> 01:33:08,128
...my attitude was he wants to be on land.
1476
01:33:08,333 --> 01:33:13,214
So he made a conscious decision in issue one,
"My life is on land here."
1477
01:33:13,421 --> 01:33:17,551
And I wanted to have something that
was gonna drag him back into the ocean.
1478
01:33:17,759 --> 01:33:23,983
So we created-- Ivan Reis and I created
this race of sea creatures...
1479
01:33:24,182 --> 01:33:26,435
...humanoid sea creatures,
man-eating creatures...
1480
01:33:26,643 --> 01:33:30,318
...that were starving and from the trench
and they had eaten all their food...
1481
01:33:30,522 --> 01:33:31,739
...and they were coming up.
1482
01:33:31,940 --> 01:33:34,238
They come up out of the ocean
and attack a town...
1483
01:33:34,442 --> 01:33:36,911
...and Aquaman gets involved
with that attack...
1484
01:33:37,112 --> 01:33:38,785
...and has to go back into the water.
1485
01:33:38,988 --> 01:33:41,787
What Aquaman doesn't know
is they're actually another kingdom.
1486
01:33:41,991 --> 01:33:46,918
They're actually another underwater
kingdom that is one of many, with Atlantis.
1487
01:33:47,205 --> 01:33:49,754
Although it was spawned from comics...
1488
01:33:49,958 --> 01:33:53,258
...the DC universe isn't limited
to panels and pages.
1489
01:33:53,461 --> 01:34:00,390
It has expanded to include all forms of media
and given its villains new worlds to explore.
1490
01:34:00,593 --> 01:34:02,687
JOHNS:
DC Comics isn't just comics, you know?
1491
01:34:02,887 --> 01:34:05,857
It starts in the comics,
all the characters come from the comics.
1492
01:34:06,057 --> 01:34:08,025
But then they explode into everything else.
1493
01:34:08,226 --> 01:34:12,231
KIRSHEN: If it wasn't for these amazingly rich
and complex and multilayered villains...
1494
01:34:12,438 --> 01:34:16,409
...that we had to craft our stories around
and what is driving you through the story...
1495
01:34:16,609 --> 01:34:21,035
...what is pushing Batman,
you know, to push his limits...
1496
01:34:21,239 --> 01:34:24,118
...to get to the end of the game
is ultimately the plan...
1497
01:34:24,325 --> 01:34:27,249
...and the storytelling
around the villain...
1498
01:34:27,453 --> 01:34:32,004
...and the villains' interactions with each other
as they all try to take down Batman.
1499
01:34:32,208 --> 01:34:36,554
You had your shot, Deathstroke,
but you're not the only assassin in town.
1500
01:34:37,714 --> 01:34:41,344
There is such rich material here
and such deep, amazing characters...
1501
01:34:41,551 --> 01:34:44,976
...that have such long history
and love from the fans...
1502
01:34:45,180 --> 01:34:48,400
...for 50, 60, 70 years that we wanna
tell great stories in our games.
1503
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:51,103
We don't want it to just be about
the gameplay and cool visuals.
1504
01:34:51,311 --> 01:34:53,530
There's gotta be the meat there
of a great story.
1505
01:34:53,730 --> 01:34:58,406
To me, it was a lot of fun to see that because
it explores the world of these characters...
1506
01:34:58,610 --> 01:35:03,332
...and it doesn't just give you
one flavor month in, month out.
1507
01:35:03,531 --> 01:35:08,128
The future, including
the upcoming Forever Evil comic event...
1508
01:35:08,328 --> 01:35:13,084
...will continue to emphasize the villains
and their many diabolical deeds.
1509
01:35:13,291 --> 01:35:19,469
As DC celebrates its villainy,
we're doing the first New 52 event series.
1510
01:35:19,672 --> 01:35:22,801
I'm writing it. David Finch is drawing it.
It's called Forever Evil.
1511
01:35:23,009 --> 01:35:26,058
And the context of this
is the Justice League is dead.
1512
01:35:26,262 --> 01:35:30,108
The villains have inherited the earth.
They've been killed by the Crime Syndicate.
1513
01:35:30,308 --> 01:35:35,155
So we create an event that now carries on
throughout the rest of 2013 and 2014...
1514
01:35:35,355 --> 01:35:36,948
...that's all about the villains.
1515
01:35:37,148 --> 01:35:42,496
And when we looked at the whole lineup
of characters, it really came down to:
1516
01:35:42,695 --> 01:35:45,198
Why does this character exist
in the DC universe?
1517
01:35:45,406 --> 01:35:48,205
What role does this character fill?
1518
01:35:48,409 --> 01:35:52,880
How do we show that function through
story, through character development?
1519
01:35:53,081 --> 01:35:57,211
Seeing all the villains
manifest themselves in animation...
1520
01:35:57,418 --> 01:36:02,845
...and television and film and videogames
from the comic books, that's...
1521
01:36:03,049 --> 01:36:07,225
I mean, that's the true power
and testament to the characters themselves.
1522
01:36:07,428 --> 01:36:10,477
The supervillains of DC Comics...
1523
01:36:10,682 --> 01:36:15,062
...come in all manners
of shapes, sizes, personalities...
1524
01:36:15,270 --> 01:36:19,616
...dark recesses and eccentricities.
1525
01:36:19,816 --> 01:36:24,322
They conquer worlds, eradicate cities
and terrorize the innocent...
1526
01:36:24,529 --> 01:36:27,328
...all while fighting the hero.
1527
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:32,288
And it's this bond between villain
and hero that is inseverable...
1528
01:36:32,495 --> 01:36:36,966
"unbreakable, a fusion of soul,
a sense of feeling...
1529
01:36:37,166 --> 01:36:41,342
...a deeply rooted connection
that cannot be extricated.
1530
01:36:41,546 --> 01:36:45,767
Theirs is a war of intellect, of strength...
1531
01:36:45,967 --> 01:36:52,942
...of darkness and intertwined fate
and destiny to keep doing battle.
1532
01:36:53,933 --> 01:36:57,278
They can't give up on each other.
1533
01:36:57,478 --> 01:37:00,482
Without the hero, there is no villain.
1534
01:37:00,690 --> 01:37:04,695
Without a villain, there can be no hero.